Orchid Beach Airstrip, Fraser Island

[David Isaac]

My post was a clear plea for all ALL REC pilots to wake up in this area and take responsibility for their actions so we don't have to read about more statistics/QUOTE][/i]

We probably agree on more than we disagree, though I think your plea would have been better received if you said "All Pilots" not ALL REC pilots.

 

Aviation in all its aspects can be very unforgiving, and everyone can benefit from a reflective appreciation of a (thankfully non-fatal) incident. In this instance, singling out a particular regulatory category of aviator, (rather than simply alluding to inexperience) was the prime motivation of my response.

 

Dave

Dave,

I think we totally agree, when I refer to REC pilots I include PPL holders, after all most PPL holders are purely recreational pilots. My posts equally apply to them. My mate who pranged because of this ALA performance (lack thereof) issue many years ago was a PPL.

 

[Head in the clouds]

HICYou don't have to agree with either answer, but as Orchid Beach is PPR and I have been there many times in various aircraft I always ring to confirm that the strip is open whether there has been any rain lately because if there has not it will be quite soft underfoot and what the length of the grass is, this is my responsibility as PIC (if I arrive overhead and it looks like crap it is also my decision to continue or not). The owner should ask what type and what experience you have.

 

At the end of the day it is the PIC's responsibility as to whether he/she continues or not, but if you have rang, asked the correct questions and received the right answers it is very difficult from afar to determine if the answers were in fact incorrect.

 

I'm in no way saying that this was the case in this situation as I along with everyone else on this thread apart from one wasn't there on that day but as he was on the ground he should have been able to determine the conditions. It may well be the case that with such limited experience it may not have been as close as he thought.

 

If I was an owner/operator of a PPR strip and charging landing fees I would not like to be in court defending a charge if I had told the pilot that all was good when in fact it may not have been. I'm not a lawyer but if I was the complainant I would have a very good barrister and I suspect I might win.

 

As far as I'm aware as soon as you charge for anything you become responsible in some way.

 

Regards

 

Aldo

Asking whether there has been any rain is one thing but asking whether "everything is OK", is quite another thing altogether. I'm quite sure the caretakers would never 'provide advice' in the sense of whether the strip was suitable for the kind of aircraft that the enquirer intended to fly in and out of there - nor for their level of piloting skill and airmanship.

 

The owner should ask what type and what experience you have.

No, I don't think they should do that, because if they did, and they then went on to comment, it could later be construed as having given advice and that might leave them open to litigation. As long as they do no more than provide information in response to direct questions then they cannot be held liable since the pilot must operate in accordance with Federal Legislation which puts the onus on him/her to decide whether the operation can be conducted safely.

 

.... but as he was on the ground he should have been able to determine the conditions. It may well be the case that with such limited experience it may not have been as close as he thought.

My oath he should have - there's no nanny there to do it for him is there? As others have said, it's time people started to take back the responsibility for their own actions. Otherwise ever-increasing 'safety legislation' will eventually result in a situation where you won't be allowed to do anything at all unless you're supervised by a 'trained specialist'.

 

The rest of that quote is very likely to be the case, and it's probably a good thing that he got a good scare to learn from, you don't learn anything when things go exactly as planned.

 

If I was an owner/operator of a PPR strip and charging landing fees I would not like to be in court defending a charge if I had told the pilot that all was good when in fact it may not have been. I'm not a lawyer but if I was the complainant I would have a very good barrister and I suspect I might win.

Well, if you'd told the pilot that 'all was good' what would the pilot be supposed to understand from that? If that was all you told me I'd take it that the airstrip was there and was open, that's all. If I wanted to know the length of the grass I'd ask that specifically, or when it had rained etc. Answering those questions would never bring the owner/operator of the strip into liability. If I asked whether the strip was suitable for my Jabiru with skinny wheels and low wheelpants and my 100 hours of piloting skill to draw upon ... well ... what would you, as the strip caretaker, tell them?

 

The fact is, the novice pilot in the unsuitable aircraft landed quite safely and was probably surprised at how quickly he stopped. Had his off-airport training included all the Esses, one of which is Surface, he should have immediately recognised that the surface wasn't what he expected and had he kept the thinking cap on he might have considered that the take-off might not be what he expects either. If he had taken time to think it through he might have done some practice take-off runs to see whether he could attain flying speed easily enough. If it looked a bit iffy, instead of risking reputations or lives he ought to have abandoned the attempt and gone in search of someone with a slasher, with a $50 note in his hand.

 

Flying isn't for everyone, it's for people who keep thinking ahead, otherwise they'll come unstuck one day. It's a real-time game - you can't just pull over to the side of the road when things go awry.

 

All this is not to say that the pilot under discussion is wholly at fault, it would seem that his training was probably a bit light on off-airport management techniques, and certainly discussion about the types of aircraft that are better suited to unsealed surfaces, and those that aren't. If it isn't bitumen it can change in so many ways - if it's soil it can be very soft after rain, if it's sand it's likely to be very soft if it hasn't rained.

 

Is long grass always a problem? The answer is no, in fact sometimes short grass is far worse. If a sandy strip like Orchid has been very dry for a long while the sand will be very soft but long DRY grass provides a firm surface to operate from. If they always cut the grass quite short and then get no rain the almost bare sand would become too soft for any operations at all. It's only long WET grass that is a problem. And it's all these variables that make it impossible for a strip operator to tell how you and your plane will perform on any particular day.

 

Regarding your 'win' in Court - most people have no idea how arbitrary Court decisions can be. Just because the Law says such and such, doesn't, by any means, guarantee you the decision you might think seems perfectly obvious - to which anyone who has spent sufficient time working with the legal system will attest. So - you might win, but I wouldn't be counting on it. And if you brought a case where the strip operator hadn't provided you with any particular advice you'd have to expect them to counter-sue you for damages to their business while the strip was closed for forensic investigation, their continued loss of business because your crash brought disrepute - and don't forget that whatever your 'excuse' under Rule 92 you failed in your take-off from an ALA where it's YOUR responsibility to do so safely, so you're liable to CASA prosecution also ... AND the airstrip operator will ask to be awarded all their legal and Court costs. You'd better have good insurance and a lazy $250K before you set off down the litigation road.

 

As far as I'm aware as soon as you charge for anything you become responsible in some way.

Yes, in the case of some things, but not always - if I have a vacant Lot on which I'm charging people to park their cars, and the surface is quite obviously rough - am I liable for your inability to drive into and out of it safely?

 

 

[David Isaac]

........ The owner should ask what type and what experience you have.

Gidday Aldo, this has always been a vexed point. The old " ...could have, should have, would have ..." argument. It somewhat depends on whether the access to use the ALA is generally publicly available or a private access only ALA. As you know technically from a PIC responsibility point of view all ALAs are PPR (Prior Permission Required), you are technically required to seek permission to land at Warnervale (Council operated) or Luskintyre (privately operated), but alas few do. How otherwise do you determine as the PIC whether the strip is serviceable, which you are REQUIRED to do by Federal Legislation whether your are a RAAus Pilot, a PPL, an ATPL or for that matter even if you were prince Philip with a PPLIf I was the owner of an ALA, yes I would ask type and experience, but I am a pilot with an assumed knowledge and experience and I would be likely operating out of the strip, so some advice is appropriate and there would be an assumed credibility to the advice.

 

However, an owner may not be a pilot or the owner pilot's partner/employee may answer the phone and may only be able to provide limited advice. So at the end of the day the risk begins and ends with the PIC as I know you have also stated. The PIC by law must seek permission and determine for themselves whether the strip is serviceable and suitable for their skill level based on the info they get. If I owned an ALA I would have all visitors sign a liability disclaimer before allowing use.

 

At the end of the day it is the PIC's responsibility as to whether he/she continues or not, but if you have rang, asked the correct questions and received the right answers it is very difficult from afar to determine if the answers were in fact incorrect.

That is always the risk so a suitable alternative must be planned.

 

If I was an owner/operator of a PPR strip and charging landing fees I would not like to be in court defending a charge if I had told the pilot that all was good when in fact it may not have been. I'm not a lawyer but if I was the complainant I would have a very good barrister and I suspect I might win.

I wouldn't assume that, there has been plenty of precedence to the contrary. My mates case was one case in point.

 

As far as I'm aware as soon as you charge for anything you become responsible in some way.Aldo

Depending on how you communicate, your responsibility can be adequately discharged without liability.

[SSCBD]

OK - I will make one more comment on reading above.

 

I know of airstrips that require you call first and must have say 150 hours of experience and other conditions that may be required before you are even considered to be allowed to land or not.

 

This is also for GA PPL.

 

And as above, ringing and asking the caretaker, or even another say pilot the condition of the strip = come on really - you all sound like a bunch of lawyers - where has the Assize way of TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING and help out. If this keeps up, what are we doing flying at all? Really.

 

The caretakers I know usually have more experience than most of RAA or pvt GA guys anyway.

 

BUT what this has shown, as a few of has have tried to point out, is the vast difference in RAA aircraft have in performance and how a 100kg extra weigh say with pax and fuel makes to some aircraft. Throw the weight out (pax) and this incident would not have happened as the performance would have increased greatly.

 

Maybe we should, "not let low time pilots carry non flying PAX" till they have say, 150 hours of experience AND with more "diverse operational experience and conditions"? and make sure they understand with non tar grass strips or real bush / country strips, not ALA's.

 

Will this save an innocent life? this is my highest concern. In other words and answer truthfully, would you let your non flying daughter of son for example fly with anyone that have got a new shinny license and low hours.

 

 

[nathan_c]

At the risk of dragging this back up,

 

Flew a C182 into orchard today and it was fantastic. Rang in the morning and was told the strip was mowed a few days ago, and when we got there the strip was in great condition and was an absolute joy to use.

 

Obviously conditions dependant but definitely a landing to the south and take off to the north would be the preference due to the trees at the southern end, and the approach is pretty easy to set up inbound from the north.

 

Definitely wouldn't hesitate to use it again and am really glad that it is maintained for public use because it was a great way to spend a day and drop in for a drink and a pie at the shop there.

 

Cheers,

 

Nathan

 

 

[bedwa38]

Great news Nathan, happy flying. It is an incredible spot that we are so lucky to have access to.

 

 

[BJFly]

The trusty courier in company with a Lightwing made the trip to Orchid Beach today. Nice grass strip, some undulations but unless your landing a Airbus A380 you should be good Nice scenery at the top of the island. $20 paid at the shop - small price to pay for access to a special place using our favourite means of transport.