Flying in Gusting Winds (How too?)

[Ewen McPhee]

Ok I admit I have no clue; up front, just to get it out there.

 

I have about 14 hours now and 1.1 solo

 

Last weekend I went up in a Texan, in gusting winds 7 - 10 knots to do circuits

 

The windsock was all over the place. I went up with the instructor initially.

 

On take off the wind was about 8 knots and off to the right by about 20 degrees.

 

At about 300feet, just as I was pulling in the flaps the wind changed to a lateral current and throwing the plane into a steep (for me) bank. I corrected that but started thinking "oh my god do I really want to do this".

 

It totally stuffed by confidence and I ended up all over the place about twice as far as usual out from the runway and having to drag the aeroplane back in under power.

 

We throttled back from the usual 100kt circuit speed to 85 kts just so we didn't bouce around on downwind too much.

 

By final there was a hefty crosswind (from the right) with the sock about 3/4.

 

I came in OK but have the nose to far to the left and skittered down the runway. I had had a bit to much left rudder on and was tilting the airlerons into the wind as instructed.

 

Next final the crosswind was there again but less so. On flare the wind just decided to stop and I dropped like a stone bouncing down the runway.

 

After three landings the instructor got out and off I went in some trepidation.

 

I did 5 more circuits before a GA aircraft joined the circuit and I declared full stop landing on my final approach. Each time the windsock had another direction and angle.

 

Luckily the last landing was fine and the Instructor seemed happy enough.

 

I looked at his notes and he described my initial landings as "untidy".

 

I am still not sure what I should have learned from that experience, and I hope the experts here might talk about landing in gusting crosswinds in an Ultralight.

 

At the moment I am a little shy of doing it again but I am sure my son will tell me I am a "sook" and to harden up. (Mind you his Cessna 182 seems to laugh at slight winds like these)

 

 

[jacmiles]

Dont worry about those gusting winds doctor,there all part of making you a better pilot than our GA brothers much to their disgust.

 

 

[Ultralights]

dont worry to much about it, even though you might find it abit unsettling, it helps to get experience in such conditions, for someday you might fly to a far off destination, only to find windy and gusty conditions when you get there....

 

i little rule of thumb i like to use is, when landing, select flap based on the windsock angle, no wind= flap full, strong wind, and the sock near horizontal= no flap.

 

when things get windy, less flap and a little more speed will help with control, and the controls wont feel so sloppy, also a little power can be good also, and keep it on into the flare, as the prop wash will help smooth out the airflow over the tail and rudder. example, in the Jabiru LSA, a good approach and landing speed is 60kts with full flap, when its windy, aim for 65kts and 1 stage of flap

 

another thing you will notice with rougher weather, is no matter how bumpy it seams, the aircraft will alway fly as it always does, and you will not hit anything regardless of the size of the bumps in the air... and the air just above the runway, is a little smoother, as the runway tends to smooth the air out a it as it moves over it by stopping the vertical movement of the air.

 

so just relax and go with the bumps, dont over control. even in rough air, you should still only use smooth control inputs.

 

 

[farri]

G`Day Ewen Mcphee,

 

First of all,"Good Onya".

 

You say," I`m still not sure what I should have learned from that experience"

 

Your instructor should be the best guy to teach you in that aircraft because not all Ultralights are the same and each requires it`s own methodology.

 

Some of the things to have learned are that if you continue to fly you will have more of the same conditions and the most important thing to remember is to be in complete control of the aircraft at all times regardles of what the wind is doing,always remember to fly the aircraft.

 

It is difficult for anyone to tell you exactly what to do because what you need to do is directly relative to what is happening at the precise moment however your air speed is the most critical factor and it should be high enough to allow for any wind sheer so that you are in complete control and don`t stall due to a severe sink and too low an airspeed.

 

A good rule of thumb for your approach speed on final is,( The stall speed + 50% of the stall speed + 1/3 of the wind speed.) this applies to most aircraft.

 

Don`t allow anything to stuff your confidence,that in it`s self could cause the accident,your ability will improve with time and correct practise.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

It`s Better To Be Down Here Wishing You Were Up There, Than To Be Up There Wishing You Were Down Here.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

As others have said, good on you. I'm a bit of a cerebral bloke - I like to understand the theory behind what's going on for me. I'd bail up my instructor and ask him to discuss strategies around approach speed in gusting winds, I'd also ask him to explain wind shear - what it is, why it happens and what we need to do as pilots to manage it.

 

The other thing I would say is that at 14 hours you are probably getting quite good at landing in stable conditions (we all differ). However it will take you a few more hours to get confident to handle gusty conditions and gusty crosswinds. That's because the situation is always changing and we need to be able to "read" the a/c and its response to the conditions. That ability to read the a/c quickly enough to be ahead of it, not behind it, in those conditions will take time to develop. Have faith however that it will come.

 

You should also be aware that you can (and should if you feel the need) always say to your instructor "Oh no! You're not getting out this time. You are sticking with me until I feel more confident in these conditions". Air time in those conditions is what you need in order to gain the skills. Whether it's by yourself or with an instructor. Be tough on yourself though - the idea is that eventually you will leave your instructor behind. So use her/him as a learning aid, not a crutch.

 

One final thought: a/c fly much less well when we have a death grip on the stick. In rough conditions focus on a light touch and letting the a/c fly itself. Yes you will need to correct, but don't chase it and don't over-correct.

 

Oh and another final thing! I always use the throttle more aggressively on final and right through the landing in those conditions. If you are getting big changes in airspeed due to the gusting wind and the changing wind direction then you should be using the power, as needed, to manage that. For me that means turning a little mental switch that says "be a little quicker and bigger on the power use". Whilst we can use a higher airspeed and higher power settings throughout the approach - and we should, the bottom line is that many of these a/c don't like to land at 60+ knots. You have to get the speed off at some point, hence the need to manage that transition sometimes with power as the conditions change.

 

Well done...thus the aviator is made.

 

Kind regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Ewen McPhee]

Thanks everyone.

 

One question about takeoff.

 

Is it better to keep the speed up a bit more then as well. Usually I go for best angle and 60kts to 500 feet. Given the gusty conditions is it better to keep the nose down and go for 65 - 70 kts. I have read the wind conditions thread below and it is very helpful.

 

BTW I am a GP as someone above knows.

 

Am studying Aviation Medicine with the aim of becoming a DAME one day :big_grin:

 

 

[Guest J430]

Gooday Ewen,

 

The practise of climbing out at best angle is a DANGEROUS one. Stop doing it. You use best angle ONLY when you have to use a short strip with obstacles like trees at the departure end.

 

The chances of an engine failure, either complete or partial is pretty slim, however if it did occur, and particularly at 30-500 feet you will most likely stall and spin in, and that will end your life cycle.

 

Some on here will bag me for being so blunt about it, but its the facts.

 

Talk to your instructor about it, and if he is the one suggesting you do it that way, let me know, myself and several other a/c will be going through EML next Monday, and with most of them having tons more experience than I have from Airline Training captains to flight instructors.....and I am sure we can have a serious chat about it.

 

Suggest you read the thread on the link below.

 

Take off speed/climb - Recreational Flying

 

As for a few bumps here and there.....one day you will hardly notice them, but as said above, add a few knots and maybe a little less flap when conditions require it. Vs x 1.3 and plus 10% of the wind value.

 

Cheers

 

J:thumb_up:

 

 

[Yenn]

The normally accepted approach speed is stall speed multiplied by 1.3 and if windy add 50% of the gust speed. I think farri got a little mixed up with his explanation above.

 

 

[Ewen McPhee]

Thanks,

 

All dumb questions and perceptions are my own. :confused: I do talk to instructor, just thoughts and questions come up later. The message is received loud and clear. Note might have my angle and rate of climb terminology mixed up I will check. All the advice very useful.

 

Cheers

 

 

[farri]

The normally accepted approach speed is stall speed multiplied by 1.3 and if windy add 50% of the gust speed. I think farri got a little mixed up with his explanation above.

Hi yen,

 

I`m going from memory but when I learnt BAK, from a Trevor Thom manual,it was what I wrote.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

Ps, If you think it`s wrong Please point me to your formular.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

What I was taught was 1.3Vso plus 50% of the gust speed. To be clear if the wind is blowing 20 gusting 30 then you would add 5 knots to 1.3Vso.

 

Having said that normal approach speed on the Tecnam, for example, is 60 knots with a stall speed of around 40 knots depending on load. So 1.3Vso is only 52 knots. That means that the 60 knots has nice margin in it - gust speed of 16 knots. When you start doing an approach at 55knots in gusty conditions is when you can approach the limits.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Ewen McPhee]

Just to clarify I am using the information given at the School

 

Texan TC

 

Takeoff 45kts

 

Best Climb angle 48kts

 

Best Climb Rate 58kts

 

Stall full falp 31kts

 

Advises Climb at 60kts and at 500ft nose over to 70kts

 

So I am using the Best Climb rate rather than angle

 

My Bad

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Whats the max turbulence speed Ewen ?

 

 

[Mazda]

Well done Ewen! Your instructor would not have sent you solo if you were not ready for those conditions, so you must have been doing well.

 

There are some good comments above, and the use of less flap is something to consider. On a crosswind take off it is can be an idea to hold it down and positively lift off a few knots faster than normal, rather than letting it fly off (as there is sideways pressure on the gear).

 

If you haven't flown much in wind the other thing to consider is ground speed. With a decent headwind component, even with the extra airspeed you are carrying you'll be landing at a similar (or even lower) ground speed so you will stop just as quickly on the ground.

 

Also think of the wind over the ground. The downwind leg will happen faster as you are being pushed along by the tailwind, but consider an early base turn because when you turn final, you are now battling more of a headwind. Think in terms of engine failure - would you make it to the field?

 

Also if there is a crosswind component, will that push you wide, beyond the centre line, resulting in a fairly ugly situation of trying to over-bank? If so, maybe you should start that turn onto final early.

 

 

[Ewen McPhee]

Thanks Mazda, I certainly wasn't having a go at the Instructor, far from it. They wouldn't let you go up if you were dangerous, it would be pretty bad for business.

 

I thought it a topic worth discussion. Since I am stuck in the office all day forums are a great way to communicate.

 

Cannot find the maximum turbulence speed in the operating manual for the texan

 

Manouvering speed is 78kts (Va)

 

Maximum Crosswind 14kts

 

I had heard discussions about turbulence speed being important in Cessna 200 series aircraft, not sure why.

 

 

[Mazda]

The manoeuving speed is probably close enough. If in doubt, check with your instructor.

 

The problem with some aircraft like Cessna 210s is that their cruise speed is relatively high compared with the speed that is only supposed to be used in smooth air (yellow arc of the ASI).

 

 

[IanR]

Ewen, as Mazda says there is a huge difference in the 210 - from memory the turbulence penetration speed was round 99 kts IAS and on descent you could be indicating well over 160kts !! (its a while since I have flown one so figures may not be totally correct). I just remember it was a pain in very turbulent conditions. We always thought it was because it didn't have struts and most Cessnas did - but not sure of the real reason - I believe there were a few in-flight breakups with them from people ignoring the speeds.

 

From the looks of things you are getting very sound advice here on the gusty/windy conditions - its actually fun when you get used to it. With me it all clicked on one landing where the instructor actually slapped me on the wrist and told me to let go - the plane did a better job by itself than with me helping it !

 

 

[farri]

What I was taught was 1.3Vso plus 50% of the gust speed. To be clear if the wind is blowing 20 gusting 30 then you would add 5 knots to 1.3Vso.Having said that normal approach speed on the Tecnam, for example, is 60 knots with a stall speed of around 40 knots depending on load. So 1.3Vso is only 52 knots. That means that the 60 knots has nice margin in it - gust speed of 16 knots. When you start doing an approach at 55knots in gusty conditions is when you can approach the limits.

 

Regards

 

Mike

Hi Pelorus32,

 

Remember I did say that Ewens instructor is the guy to teach him.

 

What you have said is fine and I accept it however, I was taught the rule of thumb that I have writen, and keep in mind I have said," Rule Of Thumb" not what must be done.

 

Because the wind is not a constant factor and also, that it is almost impossible to accurately measure any gusts from the cockpit, it would be quite a task to accurately apply any rule of thumb,on numbers alone, but I do know, from experience, that the formula I have given is on the side of safety and that matters the most.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

 

[Ewen McPhee]

Thank you all for the contributions. I guess we can draw the thread to a close. I have found it educational and useful to clarify some issues.

 

A couple of things though, at no stage will this replace the face to face time with my instructor; whom I have high regards for.

 

Second there is a great deal of power in using forums in this way to draw together opinions of others and it does help. I hope that it helped others.

 

I wish the community that you have created here all the best, keep up the good work and enjoyment of flying that comes accross in the posts.

 

I will be out there next weekend suitably armed and hopefully Hardened up(as per son) and it will probably be as smooth as silk

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Hi Pelorus32,Remember I did say that Ewens instructor is the guy to teach him.

 

What you have said is fine and I accept it however, I was taught the rule of thumb that I have writen, and keep in mind I have said," Rule Of Thumb" not what must be done.

 

Because the wind is not a constant factor and also, that it is almost impossible to accurately measure any gusts from the cockpit, it would be quite a task to accurately apply any rule of thumb,on numbers alone, but I do know, from experience, that the formula I have given is on the side of safety and that matters the most.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

G'day Frank,

 

I think we're furiously in agreement. I'm firmly of the view that the person's instructor is the key person and, like you, it's simply what I was taught rather than the holy writ.

 

Kind regards

 

Mike

 

 

[farri]

Mike,

 

Thank You.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Hi Ewan,

 

There are three things to remember when landing in gusty conditions especially a crosswind.

 

Rudder, Rudder and more Rudder!

 

Those of us who are bought up on tricycle gear aircraft tend to forget this sometimes, but if you keep the aircraft going in a straight line a lot of the other stuff will take care of itself. Rudder will also keep your circuits a nice square shape too!

 

Cheers, HH.:thumb_up:

 

 

[djpacro]

Pretty much all the rules of thumb that I'm familiar with are on Whitts Flying website eg:

 

http://www.whittsflying.com/web/page4.71Landing_in_Winds.htm#Landing%20in%20Turbulence

 

Airworthiness requirements normally specify a minimum approach speed of 1.3 Vso.

 

 

[spacesage]

Vmo in a texan is 90kts......

 

 

[Guest landmann]

The winds at my strip are variable to say the least. I never know what to exect so I carry a save "ground" speed. My Savannah ADV glides like a brick with the flaps down so I carry a gps ground speed of 50mph. The published stall speed is 35mph but if I keep the nose just up a bit maybe three degrees I sink in nicely with very little roll with power as necessary. My strip is 600 ft long but seldom use more than half.

 

Martin