Flying in Gusting Winds (How too?)

[Guest pelorus32]

Merv,I instruced in an Austflight Drifter and I would show students how to do short field landings, because it was part of the syllabus, but I always felt that at those low hours they didn`t have enough experience or skill to be capable of doing them safely.

 

I also thought and still think that it is dangerous for anyone with low hours to be doing short field landings in anything other than perfect conditions.

 

Frank.

G'day Frank,

 

I always wonder how short we want to make things anyway! Most of our a/c (perhaps the Jab aside) are pretty solid short strip performers - on or off within 200m. So what does a short strip mean? I always land early and try to have my speed well under control anyway.

 

Just a thought.

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Just thinking about this a bit more:

 

Nearly 20 years ago I worked in a place called Dumaguete City in the Philippines. The single strip had the sea at one end and a "mountain" at the other end. You could only approach from the sea. In the afternoon the sea breeze would get up and it was a real treat to be a pax in the BAC 1-11s that used to fly there for PAL. They would drop the a/c onto the strip with a hell of a bang and carrying a bunch of speed from the tail wind. Then the brakes and reverse thrust would send stuff flying all over the cabin. Dozens of boxes of donuts from Manila would be lost by various pax and would be flying around the interior. The taxi back to the terminal would see people abandon their seats in search of their boxes of donuts. Completely hysterical as most of the boxes were identical. However many times I did it I never got used to it.

 

The same as the pax briefing for emergency rows in the Shorts 360 from the same strip: "You cannot have your child with you in this row of seats because WHEN the door flies open in flight the child will be sucked out." Right I'm relaxed and comfortable now.

 

 

Sorry for the digression.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Yenn]

Several people here have commented that you should consult your instructor, so why are people suggesting using higher speeds for landing. I have never heard an instructor suggest anything less than the slowest possible speed.

 

Using a GPS to get ground speed for landing is in my opinion the ultimate in stupidity. Remember we fly in the air and trying to put a plane on the ground at excessive speed can kill. Imagine you land your Jab at 70kts instead of 60 or whatever is correct. How do you stop it taking to the air again? Hold the nose down and break off the nose gear, same with heavy braking, if the wheels can get a grip. It is even worse with a taildragger.

 

Come in too slow, with power on and it will still bite, you may not have enough elevator to flare and the back side of the power curve is not a nice place to be near the ground.

 

The old rule of thumb as posted here earlier works, so why change.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yenn.. i agree with 90% of what you say.. There is however times when addding speed is the go..and thats in gusting winds, the rule of thumb is add 1 third of the gust speed and consider useing less flap.. Wash the extra speed off in the flare while at coffee table height..

 

But as we have mostly agreed on, gps for GS in these conditions is so far from the go..

 

In larger IFR rated acft the gps needs to be a certified for IFR one and not any old gps.. So ya standard garmin won't cut it, there has to be some reasoning behind that fact, so useing a cheap GPS for the most critical information needed by the pilot at the most critical time is so not the go..This is the go...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................and this how how far from the go it is..

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

How do you stop it taking to the air again? Hold the nose down and break off the nose gear, same with heavy braking, if the wheels can get a grip. It is even worse with a taildragger.

I'll have to disagree about the taildragger there Ian (Yenn)

 

Re short fielders, IMHO one of the great attributes of a light taildragger is the abilitie to plant the mains and apply immediate braking. Some call it "plant and slam"

 

When I'm flying into a strip in gusting winds, to aviod short final stalls, I keep my speed up and plant the mains at the start of the strip. Nose down at the beggining of braking helps load up the tyres for better traction. As the aircraft slows and the wing unloads I let off the brakes to aviod tip-over.

 

 

[Guest landmann]

First off we have to compare planes to planes. I have no idea what your plane may or may not do. Nothing is fuuuuurrrther from the truth than to say that throttle will not arrest sink in my plane with level nose attitute. I was out over the ocean this morning at 2800 ft agl. The wind was dead calm. Here are some interesting figures.

 

Trimmed cruise- 5000rpm 100mph airspeed straight and level flaps up. Throttle back to less than 4200 rpm and pull back to hold level. Plane will sink. Less throttle pull more nose up but level, more sink, throttle right back stick way back nose level sinks like hell and wobbles a bit but will not stall nose level. Add throttle less sink pass 5000rpm and start gaining altitude still with nose level. Nothing was moved but the throttle with appropriate tail control. Nose was held dead level with dynon efis.

 

Now for the fun part. I have double slotted 40 degree flaps and moveable front slat that work in unison with one electric switch that I can work with my forfinger on my throttle hand. Flying along trimmed at 100mph airspeed again with flaps up and nose level, gradually reduce power holding back on stick to keep nose level, as long as you do not pass that magic number of 4200 rpm you can maintain altitude and can keep pulling back on the stick, raising the nose above the horizon and reduce airspeed to less than vfe which is 70mph. If you try to raise the nose with less than 4200rpm you just sink all the faster and keep pulling on the nose till its past 15 degrees nose up and it will stall. With at least 4200 revs the Savannah ADV will fly nose level full flaps down. Add power to the max and it will climb as much as 600fpm nose level. Slooow down. Throttle back to 4000 rpm. Keep the nose level. Ground speed 43mph air speed 0 gently sinking at 200fpm power back up to 4200rpm level flight airspeed 45mph. Ground speed 45mph. (my dynon will not register airspeeds less than 45mph)

 

Futherto the aformentioned 50mph groundspeed on approach

 

Martin

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Landmann.. Thats fantastic sorta performance.. You obviously know your acft well and expoilt its advantages in the situation you described.. You also obvioulsy get away with it.. My concern (and im sure its shared) is that these forums are visited by many low timers and students. And if your post doesn't carry explicit instructions that this sort of thing should not be attempted by these students and low timers in different acft then the worst case scenario is that they may go and attempt it and kill themselv's..

 

We all need to think about this when posting on this site. Most students look up to experianced pilots and use there behaviour to model there own flying later on..

 

Please don't think im having a go because im not.. Your obviously well ontop of your machine and enjoy its stol charactaristics. But please be carefull with post's such as in this thread..

 

cheers,:thumb_up: (puts on fire resistant suit)

 

 

[farri]

Landman,

 

I believe in flying the aircraft and not crashing,If that is what you are achieving then you are doing it right because I also believe that right and wrong are relative to the objective.

 

I make the aircraft do what I want it to do,theory is simply to understand why the aircraft is supposed to do it,but remember that all aircraft obey the same laws of physics.

 

Have fun and good luck.

 

Frank.

 

"It`s not who`s right but who`s left that counts".

 

 

[facthunter]

Sayings.

 

Farri, I used to be left, but I was told that was not right. Nev..

 

 

[facthunter]

Being more serious.

 

The post started with Ewin finding gusty conditions being a challenge. You would have to be more concerned if he found them non-challenging, at 14 hours.

 

Then we got very absorbed with a ground speed readout situation, and it's relevance. Certainly a distraction there. The fact that groundspeed readout on approach does have a role in assessing windshear on heavies is true, just to muddy the water a little, but the mental gymnastics to interpret its consequences make it difficult to justify wide application in our arena.

 

I am a little surprised at power changes not getting more mention, as I believe it's a fundamental tool in these situations, either power On or OFF as required, in a fairly positive way. Most ultralights have a good power to weight ratio, and will respond to power changes rapidly. Of course this may require rudder inputs to compensate. How many students are taught how their aircraft will respond to sudden power changes and how to control yaw precisely when the throttle is altered.

 

The other major consideration is to use the controls smoothly and possibly fully, and MAKE the aircraft adopt the attitude that you want. If the ailerons are not effective enough, use the rudder as well to cause roll in a desperate situation ( if necessary).

 

. Don't fight the aircraft, and while you need to be positive with your control inputs, they must be coordinated. With all the talk of relative airflow, remember that the pilot controls that, with the elevators.

 

Getting slow carries it's own dangers, in these conditions, so err on the side of being fast. A slower aeroplane will not respond to control inputs as well, and hasn't got the reserves of energy to allow you to manoeuver, and the go-around can be executed easier.(The ultimate life saver).

 

How do you get good at it ? Like all things ,you understand it and you practice it. There is no other way. You also get to appreciate your own and the aircrafts limitations. You don't have this at 14 hours no matter who you are. Nev..

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

And if your post doesn't carry explicit instructions that this sort of thing should not be attempted by these students and low timers in different acft then the worst case scenario is that they may go and attempt it and kill themselv's..

Sound advice motza.

 

I'm a little concerned about my posts here in the training thread, though, I also realise that student/low time pilots have access to Youtube and other video flying antics.

 

If a low timer was to see "Big Rocks and Long Props" for example S/He may doubt what they read/hear from instructers. (I note that ground/air speed is an important consideration when water skiing onto a creek bank)

 

Perhaps a little discussion about how the more 'practised' manouvers are acomplished does'nt go astray.

 

 

[farri]

The post started with Ewin finding gusty conditions being a challenge. You would have to be more concerned if he found them non-challenging, at 14 hour I am a little surprised at power changes not getting more mention, as I believe it's a fundamental tool in these situations, either power On or OFF as required, in a fairly positive way. Most ultralights have a good power to weight ratio, and will respond to power changes rapidly. Of course this may require rudder inputs to compensate. How many students are taught how their aircraft will respond to sudden power changes and how to control yaw precisely when the throttle is altered.

 

.

Nev,

 

I for one did teach the use of power to control the sink rate and the effects of power changes on the aircraft.

 

You say," I`m a little suprised at power changes not getting more mention", What do you think we should cover ?

 

Frank.

 

 

[farri]

G'day Frank,I always wonder how short we want to make things anyway! Most of our a/c (perhaps the Jab aside) are pretty solid short strip performers - on or off within 200m. So what does a short strip mean? I always land early and try to have my speed well under control anyway.

 

Just a thought.

 

Mike

Mike maybe, "Short field landing" is the wrong term.

 

What I`m refering to is what is technically known as,a short field landing, where one comes in with a high nose attitude to reduce ground speed, minimum IAS and plenty of power to controll sink rate,this allows very little room for error.

 

Frank.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Effects of power...Hmm, let me think...oh yea, the first lesson, effects of controls, and then evry lesson from then on when you need to descend, which is pretty much all of them.. Me wonders whats going on out there if people aren't getting taught the effects of power?? how do you get the thing to come back down to earth??

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

I am not sure that this thread is doing a lot of good or going anywhere – it seems to be chopping and changing around too much.

 

 

I very much agree with Motz that students are reading it and are probably struggling to formulate some kind of opinion on technique (that they may never actually be taught) to take forward with them into their own future flying.

 

 

So I am going to add a few points that people can take as solid in terms of principle. These apply to what appears to be a central discussion point of the intended runway being short, sloping upwards and on the lee side of a hill.

 

 

In circumstances of ANY wind then by definition you will have curl-over. How much depends directly on wind speed and any additional lee wave effects that may or may not be present.

 

 

If you have curl-over with any appreciable wind then there is only one technique that you apply – you come in hot and high with every legal knot on the clock you can get without exceeding rough air speed.

 

 

Calculating (or attempting to use) ground speed as part of the equation is not valid – mainly because you normally do not have any! This has nothing to do with subtracting headwind from airspeed it has everything to do with rate of descent! It has nothing much to do with abating descent rate with engine power either – because you will not have enough if you get slow!

 

 

It is a very brutal form of approach control that is not dictated by calculation it is very much dictated by some general principles but primarily what is required to deal with the site itself.

 

 

There is nothing theoretical about any of this it is a fact of life consequent to flying in the hills. Hill flying is totally different to flat site flying and you should not go there unless you have received practical and valid instruction in techniques from someone who has already been there! This is what you can face –

 

 

My first paid flying job was a season at Camphill in the Derbyshire Peak District – rated as being the second most demanding site in UK and second only to another site in Scotland that was really hairy.

 

 

Typically you would turn final at getting on for 80 knots with a 40 knot wind on the snout and at around 1000’, maybe a little higher. 200 mtrs from final turn you would be at ground level and landing in a tailwind not much above stall speed! You were in a glider so going around was not an option – you had to get it right!

 

 

Unfortunately, when I was being evaluated for the job the wind did not blow so I could not be checked out in those conditions. Instead I had a very detailed briefing from the CFI that included copious amounts of photos of what happened when people did not obey the briefing. Then I was left with it.

 

 

When I first met the conditions (which were actually the normal state of affairs around there – I had just been unlucky) I simply did not believe what I was looking at. It was totally alien to any flying that I had done before. I did not even have the luxury of sinking my fangs into the instrument panel to relieve the anxiety because I had a student beside me and had to look laid-back!

 

 

However I stuck grimly to the briefing re speeds and positioning and it worked perfectly. I began to become a Hill Pilot.

 

 

Extreme conditions at an extreme site? Maybe – but that sort of thing is all around you and I would shudder to think of a present student gleaning advice from this thread and applying them in actual hill site conditions later in their flying.

 

 

On that point I suggest you particularly heed the words of High Plains Drifter. He may carefully sign his posts with “opinion only and he is not an instructor’ but he knows what he is about and few instructors have that sort of experience anyway.

 

 

HPD’s own strip is small and on the lee side of the top of a 2300’ mountain. For very many years he has been landing aircraft there that range from Drifters to C180s and include helicopters.

 

 

Down the valley floor we may have only a few knots of surface wind but HPD is stuck up right in the Gradient Wind. So generally he is facing curl over and appreciable winds most of the time.

 

 

Make of the above what you will – but I would ask you to consider your words carefully when you post in the Training Forum and remember that students are reading. Couch your words particularly so that the point you are making can be seen clearly in a particular context that may not be valid in all contexts.

 

 

Aye

 

 

Tony

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Mike maybe, "Short field landing" is the wrong term.What I`m refering to is what is technically known as,a short field landing, where one comes in with a high nose attitude to reduce ground speed, minimum IAS and plenty of power to controll sink rate,this allows very little room for error.

 

Frank.

G'day Frank,

 

I knew what you meant and my - poorly expressed - point was about your last comment: Because the performance of many of our aircraft is so good why do we want to operate in the area that "...allows very little room for error"?

 

I fully understand the need to train us all to use those strategies, however the reality is that to operate safely in that regime you need plenty of practise. Most of the time we have no need to go there so we don't get the practise...

 

I'm off to a new thread - heeding Tony's advice and his comment about this thread being all over the shop....and me much to blame.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[facthunter]

Response.

 

Motza please do me the courtesy of reading my post properly and then you would not write the sort of thing that you have posted above. You guessed it, I'm not impressed. Nev..

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Nev, my sincere appolagies if you took my post the wrong way.. I wasn't having a go mate.. I was saying that effects of power should be taught from day dot and if it isn't then somethings terribly amiss.. I was agreeing with you.. sorry if it came across the wrong way..

 

 

[farri]

G'day Frank,I knew what you meant and my - poorly expressed - point was about your last comment: Because the performance of many of our aircraft is so good why do we want to operate in the area that "...allows very little room for error"?

 

Mike

Mike,

 

Exactly,and I always pointed it out.

 

Frank.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Crickey this thread has really taken off:faint: NPI

 

As some have correctly asserted (IMO) since my earlier post the best approach depends on the aircraft, the pilot and local conditions amongst many other things no doubt.

 

As Tony and HPD point out I'm also not an instructor, just putting into practise what appears to work best with my aircraft at my site and sharing on this forum and feedback is most welcome.

 

If anyone thought I place too much attention inside the cockpit constantly checking the GPS for groundspeed on final, that's not the case, it's a single check of ground speed while still at 100-150ft AGL on final into a strip in cases where there are likely to be patches of still air on the ground. Having to pull any more than 70kts IAS would an extreme case that would have me thinking I shouldn't have been flying in those winds.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen