Tecnam brakes

[Guest Linda Court]

I thought I read on this site a note from a Tecnam owner who had a solution to juddering brakes - sometimes mine do this. They are ventilated discs. Any comments or useful ideas?

 

 

 

[tecnamman]

Hello Linda

 

 

 

I’m the Tecnam owner who posted a reply to a request from Paul Willets for other Tecnam owners to respond with observations, tips on maintenance etc about their pride and joys.

 

 

 

I have a Sierra 2002 and have clocked up about 50 hours in 5 months of ownership…. so I’m not able to give any long term ‘prognoses’ about the Sierras longevity, but I expect many years of trouble free flying after reading about your positive experiences so far over 500 hours!

 

 

 

The Sierra is an absolute joy to fly….light and responsive on the stick with an amazing roll rate more akin to an aerobatic aircraft…. and a breeze to trim with the electric trim on the horizontal stabilizer. I used to do aerobatics (many long years ago), and I get the distinct feeling this little lady (mines of the fairer sex) could handle gentle aerobatics quite effortlessly. Of course, I must emphasize that’s only a sense, as we all know that aeros are strictly forboten in RAA a/c. and I have no intention of proving or disproving my intuition.

 

 

 

Regarding the brake shudder Linda; this is how I fixed the problem in mine….and it was quite severe even after a couple of hours of operation.

 

 

 

Firstly, I have no idea how handy you are with tools (can’t show any genetically inherited male bias here) so I will assume you can do this yourself.

 

 

 

Firstly, remove the main wheel spats.

 

 

 

Secondly, observe that the discs are of the ‘floating’ type and designed to slide back and forth minutely on the supporting pins of which there are four.

 

 

 

The discs needs slide on the pins so they can self align.

 

 

 

I found the discs were jammed solid and unable to slide freely, hence causing a strong pulse at very slow speed and a distinct shudder at anything above a fast walking pace.

 

 

 

Initially I was thinking the best way to fix this was to remove the wheel (rather difficult if you don’t have the four point pin socket/spanner to undo the wheel bearing I discovered.)

 

 

 

Plan B and ‘work’ the discs back and forth on the pins to push the disc pads away. Now sparingly apply high temperature synthetic brake grease like Starlube or equivalent to the pins, working it all the way around.

 

 

 

Oh, by the way, it’s much easier if you jack the aircraft and turn the wheel….I have made (turned) up a lifting attachment from green nylon (a mate had it lying around his workshop so very cheap) that fits in the neck of my workshop jack and lifts the a/c off the deck via the correct lifting point.

 

 

 

I used a small screwdriver blade and after application of the grease worked the discs back and forth to spread the grease evenly. Now remove any excess with the small blade (important not to leave any excess that could possibly contaminate the discs or the brake pads…..you only need minimal grease to do the job).

 

 

 

Refit the spats and lower to floor……..pull the brake handle 3 or 4 times to seat the pads before you taxi off and check for normal feel when you start moving.

 

 

 

It worked on mine and should on yours (the late models all have the same brakes irrespective of high/low wing configuration).

 

 

 

I have passed this info on to several other Tecnam owners and advised Bruce and the Vic agents of my solution………all I can say is it worked for me and even though you won’t read about it in the Maintenance manual no one I have spoken to has any real problems with what I’ve done from a safety aspect…….and the brakes on the Tecnam, when you get them to work smoothly, are fantastic.

 

 

 

Hope this advise is of some help

 

 

 

Keep the posts coming you Tecnam owners out there!

 

 

 

Cheers

 

 

 

David

 

 

[Guest Linda Court]

Thanks David:

 

I understand and can do all you have described, with the help of hubby. We actually manufactured a "four pin socket" to assist with the removal of the main wheel. Ours are the floating disc type so the fix you suggest makes sense and should work.

 

I have had the privelege to fly the Sierra and it is all you say it is.

 

I have had great delight in our Echo Super which suits the work we use him (mine is a boy) for. Last month weflew a 40hr trip from Caboolture to Charters Trs, Tennant Creek, Alice, Ayers Rock, Oodnadatta, Leigh creek, Lightning Ridge and a few other places in btn. A/c did not miss a beat. He used 300 ml of oil.

 

With proper maintenance, sensible handling, there's no reason why our aircraft should not have a long life. I fly Tecnams for a school I am associated with and they are really flogged by students. Amazingly, they can handle this! But a privately owned a/c, like yours and mine, they are treated so much differently so get set to enjoy your Sierra for many years to come.

 

2 suggestions I'd like to mention in retn for your "brake fix":

 

(1) I recently have had trouble removing one of my fuel caps so have taken to applying Molytec Silicone Lubricant to it and O ring - fantastic!

 

(2) Also, we have used True Blue Auusie Goo in our inner tubes to prevent punctures as we do venture into thorny territory on our trips.

 

Happy flying, David, if your're ever up Qld way, (Caboolture is just N of B'ne), give me a call: 0403 388 884.

 

Cheers, Linda

 

 

[PaulN]

Hi Linda,

 

As you have probably picked up from this forum, my wife (Gwen) and I like to take extended cross country flights in our CT. I have from time to time given thought to puncture proofing the tyres but not gone beyond thinking about it. Some have advised against injecting goo because of balance issues. I'd like to hear more about your choice to use this stuff. Is this the same goo used in bicycle tyres? Just how does it work? How long does it last? Does one need to top-up/replace periodically? Does one still adjust air pressure in these tyres? Do you have any other advice to offer?

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

 

 

[Ross]

Hi Paul

 

The owner of the Griffith online Jab tried it I don't know which product. We have lots of "Catheads" around this area and the original 4 ply tyres used on the Jabs were hopeless against them.I subsequently flew it with violent vibrations as soon as you were airborne cancelled by brake application. About 100 hrs TT then.

 

He has either discontinued using the product or changed to another.

 

I think it even carries a spare wheel now as well as a spare tube. I think it was up to about 770 hrs TT on my BFR on 30-08-2006.

 

The owner Norm Raworth (pronounced rayworth) is fairly easy to talk too is a L2 and is about to take on instructing at Narrandera once his new J160 arrives in October I think. His mobile is 0427180740.

 

I have heard that some people have used 6 inch 8 ply tyres on ultralights. I had once done a search to find the Jab sizes in 8 ply made in Indonesia. You would need to check that when inflated there would still be clearance from the UC particularly the front wheel.

 

Regards Ross

 

 

[Guest Linda Court]

Hi Paul: to answer your questions...

 

Is this the same goo used in bicycle tyres?

 

The product is True Blue Goo (www.trueblue.biz) - it can be used in all tyres but I don't know if it is the same goo you have heard about.

 

Just how does it work?

 

You deflate your inner tube/tyre, remove valve, inject the appropriate amount (prob about 125ml), re-insert valve, inflate inner tube/tyre. When something punctures the inner tube/tyre, the goo seals around the hole. You will probably not know you've had a puncture.

 

How long does it last?

 

I don't know. We injected it into our inner tubes over 45 hrs ago prior a trip. We've made approx 25 landings. All seems fine so far. I have had no vibration issues, tyres are not wearing unevenly, I have detected no difference in anything.

 

Does one need to top-up/replace periodically?

 

Not that I'm aware of.

 

Does one still adjust air pressure in these tyres?

 

One can still check air pressure and adjust air pressure as req'd.

 

Do you have any other advice to offer?

 

Yes, visit web site and email [email protected]with any queries. "Terry" and "Cameron" have been most helpful. I understand it is different to other products on the market that have had issues which is why this product has been introduced. They told us it can be sucked out of the inner tube if necessaryin the same manner it was inserted. We have no intentions of removing same. A fellow pilot on our trip had 2 punctures, we had none, but neither did the other 3 a/c. We were the only ones with goo altho' several have put it in since.

 

I still carry spare inners plus Holts Tyre Weld plus a pump, not so much because I don't trust the goo but we've only used it for 45hrs and we go to some very remote areas.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers, Linda

 

 

[Guest Linda Court]

Hi Ross:

 

You'll see I replied to Paul re puncture goo - the product I am using is True Blue Puncture Goo and so far have had no problems. No vibration, no uneven tyre wear. In the 45hrs since we injected it into our inner tubes, I've detected no difference in take off, landing or anything. I am happy with all of that and if it prevents punctures, then I am delighted.

 

We have 6 ply tyres and our inner tubes are not as thick as the USA ones but a lot thicker than the Chinese ones so we have some protection but one needs more insurance than that to combat those cats-heads you speak of.

 

Cheers,

 

Linda

 

 

[PaulN]

Thanks Linda,

 

Have spoken with Cameron and ord'd some of his product to try. Sounds pretty good. I've also put him onto Ian's forum shop so the rest of the forum readers may be able to buy through Ian soon.

 

Paul

 

 

[Guest bateo]

G'day Guys,

 

I have had similar troubles with Shuttering brakes thinking it was the discs, but when I say shuttering, it is really discomforting using the brakes (luckily can land the thing in 50 metres).

 

It literally shakes the whole airframe and mostly pulls to the right, I have enquired about new discs through Bruce but would you guys suggest following this method first with such a heavy force on the brakes?

 

By the way, my model is a Tecnam Echo P92 S 2000 model....?? Am unaware if the brakes are differentand if this will make a differenceto your maintenance method???

 

Cheers

 

Sam

 

 

[Guest bateo]

G'day Tecnamman,

 

Thanks to your post, my brakes are better than ever.. Its very bizzare in how little effort it took in greasing the pins to fix such an annoying and dangerous brake shutter.

 

Jacking the aircraft up sure makes thejob much easier!!!

 

You have saved me from potentially ordering and buying new discs from Italy!!

 

 

[tecnamman]

Hello Sam

 

 

 

Glad I could be of some assistance in solving your brake shudder. You know Sam, it absolutely astounds me that no one at Tecnam (Italy) had come up with this simple solution to what is a very widespread and extremely serious problem. At first I thought it was just a problem with my airplane but have since confirmed what I first suspected…other people must be experiencing the same problem because it’s a design engineering problem and not a one off fault…this has been well and truly confirmed from the comments posted by other Tecnam owners and my conversations with other Tecnam devotees at fly ins and aero clubs. I suspect that they (Tecnam) know about the problem because the certified model of the Sierra, for which you pay an extra $40k has a different wheel brake assembly similar to a Cessna [floating caliper on pins with fixed disc]….my background is in auto fleet maintenance but the problem should be obvious to anyone who comes from a mechanical background…I’m no genius!!

 

Tecnam need to rework the design of the brakes to make them work properly…it’s an issue the factory need to own up to and offer a solution for all owners….it’s not good enough to offer facile excuses and ignore the problem and hope it will go away…Tecnam market themselves as being top of the range in the UL market so they need a re engineer on the design and fix the problem…if you bought a new car and every time you put your foot on the brakes the steering wheel shuddered violently…you’d be back like a shot!

 

 

 

What disappointed me the most was the response I received from the Tecnam agent in New Zealand…his answer was totally unsatisfactory and left me wondering….but I won’t go there, the Tecnam community is small and we all have to live together, and the local people are great.

 

 

 

Hope somebody in the Tecnam hierarchy (outside Australia!) monitors this site!!!!!

 

 

 

Cheers Sam

 

 

 

Let’s hear from you Tecnam owners out there about your experiences.

 

That way we all learn.

 

 

 

Merry xmas, a happy new year and safe landings

 

24-4575

 

 

 

tecnamman

 

 

[Guest bateo]

G'day Dave,

 

I Flew a Nav to Orange NSW this morning, the brake shutter had come back overnight (not as bad though), when it was completely gone when first cleaned and greased.. Just wondering did you have to do this process multiple times to achieve smooth brakes or which grease did you use??

 

I havent put the spats back on yet, thinking there might of been some gunk caught up, but all seems to be ok..?? what do you think?

 

I absolutely agree, Tecnam is on the rise, and for the money to purchase one, even used market, you expect a little better from the design point of view, and/or even a diagnosis and solution from the Factory or agent.. Although I must say Bruce Stark has been very helpful.

 

 

[tecnamman]

Sam

 

Firstly, I recommend you check the pins for rust/corrosion pitting/metal dags etc. Since your machine is much older than mine, I suspect your pins will be rusted/pitted and not in pristine condition. If rusty, corrosion pitted etc I would remove and dress with a fine sandpaper strip (don’t worry about removing the zinc plating with the sandpaper, it will have long gone by mechanical action of the disc on the pin)…..my pins were ok because the aircraft was virtually new when I went searching for the problem, which as I said previously, occurred shortly after taking delivery. If you do need to remove the pins, deflate the tyre and apply heat to the pins with a paint stripper gun (the pins are Locktited ) before removing. I assume you have fabricated a wheel bearing nut removal tool??

 

Next, check the disc for flatness. You will need a perfectly flat surface. I have a piece of thick glass stored under the bench I use for such purposes. Use feeler gauges to measure twist/distortion of the disc….if they’re twisted like an old 45 vinyl record that been left out in the sun forget it…no amount of grease will help!!

 

Some distortion is permissible but my guess they’ll be buckled....mine were but only about 5-10 thou. By the way, I’m no engineer but I reckon Tecnam have gone overboard with the lightening cutouts and the result is a disc with very little strength to resist heat distortion….but as I say Sam, I defer to the experts out there for a second opinion.

 

I also have a theory that when the disc heats up due to ‘riding the brakes’ when taxiing on concrete or bitumen ( I don’t know about yours, but mine will just about reach Vr with the engine rpm set at 2000, which is what Rotax recommend to relieve load on the reduction gear box/clutch…. so you are constantly applying the brakes to slow down when taxiing downwind to the start of the runway), the disc ‘grows’, and because of the close tolerance between the disc locator holes and pins, there is a potential for the disc to seize.

 

So as to the lube to use…..I use STA-LUBE by CRC. Its high temperature grease specifically for lubricating the slide pins and any other moving parts subjected to high temperatures on brake systems. It contains moly disulphide, graphite and Teflon. Part No. SL 3301 available at Burson Auto Parts and Repco.

 

I treated mine about May and have not had a reoccurrence of the violent shudder since.

 

From time to time I get a slight shudder when turning with the brakes on… but only very slight. Applications in a straight line are still essentially shudder free. I know one Tecnam owner who has applied the STA-LUBE (from new) and last time we spoke he said no shuddering had occurred.

 

Sam, when you apply the grease make sure you work the disc back and forth on each pin to spread it evenly and then carefully wipe of any excess at the edges…you don’t want any excess grease flicking onto the disc and contaminating the pads.

 

I have not enquired as to the cost of a new pair of discs, but would be interested to know how much it would cost to fit the certified brakes to the non certified models.

 

My opinion is the Tecnam factory needs to ‘come clean’….admit the problem, issue an AD or SB and assist owners. They are letting their agents down badly… they ‘cop the flack’ when it’s not their fault. There seems to be little opportunity for feedback by customers to the factory. Tecnam need all the feedback they can get both positive and negative to continue to develop their products. A page on their website devoted to genuine owner feedback (log in by serial no.) would enhance their standing dramatically.

 

Hope this has helped but if unsuccessful you might have to buy new discs. I heard somewhere that the solid discs off earlier models are better but can’t confirm this….check with Bruce??

 

Let me know the outcome Sam.

 

Safe landings

 

24-4575

 

 

[Guest bateo]

G'day Dave,

 

I applied some special Brake, disc, and Joint grease to hand extreme heat of upto 300 degrees, so far, this has improved the shuttering problem more so then yesterday.

 

I have checked for warped discs, they seem to spin evenly and very freely after I worked the disc from the pins back and forth. After greasing them today, I noticed a huge improvement, but still the slightest shutter.

 

To be quite honest, It doesnt bother me as I apply brakes very lightly, although when instructing next year it may become violent with a student in command.

 

I will keep you posted on the outcome, I am up in the air again tomorrow so I will let you know how it progresses, I thought of sanding the surface but I decided against it in case of damage.

 

I am happy with the outcome I had achieved this afternoon, I can only hope they stay like that until maybe the next 50 or 100 hourly when I can re-grease them again and maybe try and remove some of the wear and tare. bateo

 

 

[Guest bateo]

G'day Dave,

 

So far, The brakes have improved after using the valvoline 260 degree heat grease.. It still has the slightest shutter though, thinking thatone disc may have a slight bend.. I will try and remove some of the wear and tear on the pins in the near future, Keep me posted if you hear anything else on experiences with any other tecnam owners.

 

Kind Regards

 

 

[PaulN]

Tru Blue Puncture Goo

 

Thanks Linda,Have spoken with Cameron and ord'd some of his product to try. Sounds pretty good. I've also put him onto Ian's forum shop so the rest of the forum readers may be able to buy through Ian soon.

 

Paul

Hi Linda,

 

Just thought I should report my experience with Tru Blue Puncture Goo ... sadly a negative one.

 

As I said I would, I injected all three of the tyres in my CT but end result was severe vibration on take-off and landing. I have since fitted new tubes, without the Goo, and problem is gone. I don't know why, maybe because the plane sat idle for a couple of months during our freaky spring temps after injecting the goo. However, Cameron assured me the product would remain liquid and not cause any out-of-balance effects.

 

Oh well, it's experience :confused:.

 

Cheers,

 

Paul

 

 

[Guest John Simpson]

Linda, next time you feel like going for a fly for the pure pleasure of it, think about coming to Blackwater. We have a beautiful strip here Bitumen and grass. I could take you for a tour of the mining areas here if you're interested. Blackwater is 30 min east of Emerald.You (and any body else)are welcome anytime.

 

 

[Steve Donald]

hiya John yep i would have to agree, at the level Tecnam market themselves you would expect a lot more, i maintained one for a while in SA and found the brake system really substandard, as well as the need for the trim tab on the ailiron having to be set at 45 deg to maintain level wings power on or off when the tab was neutral it was a 3 sec roll rate to 45 deg, an obvious rigging problem or undisclosed airframe stress problem, not sure but enquiries were not responded to , but we need to remember Duke bikes are as cheap as Jap Bikes in Italy like BMW vs FORD all have problems at times, but service suport and parts availability at an affordable cost is what counts, hec fuel is burden cost as it is, Manufacturers need to support their clients end of story, service goes beyond the sales pitch and demo flight.

 

 

[tecnamman]

I was beginning to think I was a voice in the wilderness re the Tecnam brakes.

 

No more to say...I've said it all before...not going to repeat myself.thumb_down

 

 

[tecnamman]

Have conducted several 'experiments' in an attempt to find out more about the Tecnam brake shudder problems with some interesting findings (and hopefully solutions)

 

PM me if your Tecnam brakes are shuddering and perhaps I can point you in the right direction.

 

Would also be very interested to know other theories/suggestions...

 

Cheers