RA -AUS exams

[Admin]

Just curious. Why is it that if I train with instructor x and have a great experience then I am happy to recommend him/her but when I have a bad experience all I do is relate the story but not the names? If I named them others in here wouldn't have to suffer like me so essentially by not naming him all I am doing is promoting this ongoing suffering.It is alright if you name someone when relating your experiences. If you say something like "I trained with Bob from Dunce Flying Inc. He charged me $800 up front and I didn't get a minute in the air. I think I was ripped off.", then you are relating your experiences to others and expressing an opinion. This is fine and helpful to others. If you say, "Bob is a knob and is blatantly taking people for a ride.", then this is not so appropriate.

 

I would be interested to know who this operator that you weren't happy with really is.

Yes I am all for it but we need to be careful of liable situations and one persons thoughts on whether a comment is liable or not can be different to another persons.

It is getting closer to the line that I personally wouldn't like to see tested though. It all comes down to the absolute exact words that are used in the post that will determine on what side of the line it is on.

 

I would very much love to see rogue operators tarred and feathered and hung out to dry but then proof is needed and we all know the courts say that a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty.

 

Just my thoughts

 

 

[Guest airsick]

As I said Ian, it is ok to express an opinion but not always ok to assert some facts. Opinions expressed by an individual are not libellous. Make it clear that it is an opinion and you're fine.

 

That said, I can understand your reluctance. It just sucks that there are probably heaps of people out there getting ripped off by someone running a shoddy operation...

 

 

[Guest coolmango]

Well... All I know is that it would seem I am not the only one who has had a similar experience.

 

I only wish I knew what I know now before walking "cold" into a flying school..

 

However I can see that it is not possible - as you to start somewhere. I did research the internent, and the image of the "virutual world" is not always the same in bricks and mortar . As an IT professional I should have know that ...

 

I found out how bad things were for me only after I had a couple of lessons at a really really good school. I am now very happy with the way things are going... I just wish that I had not wasted that money..

 

Who governs instructors ?

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Yes its very true that a great website doesn't necessarily mean a great school (or any other business). If you are lucky enough to have more than 1 school in your area, its best to visit all the alternatives and form your own opinion before handing over any cash. It doesn't take long to get an impression of what the operation is like & if it starts with your credit card number then caveat emptor ! I'm not criticising you Coolmango - more for the benefit of any other prospective students reading this.

 

Instructors are governed by RAAus but I suspect that commercial matters are well outside their remit. Nevertheless it might be worth informing them about your experiences.

 

Good luck with the training at your new school

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest coolmango]

Well.... From my experience in learning ..... I ended up taking to a couple of people working in the Aero industry. That for me was when my antenna starting to wobble. They pointed out that I should have had a tiff, and the other stuff, I mentioned here about my fist lessons. If you dont know... you don't know any better. When I started I had only just heard of RA-AUS and theyt is what pulled me in. I was keen as mustard.

 

I do live close to several schools - North of Brisbane. however, I joined a Club in far away Boonah, and fly with a school at the same strip . So each weekend, fying or not, My wife and I drive 1.5 hours to Boonah. We have been known to stay over night. I am luck in that my wife is keen to help me persue my long held passion to fly.

 

I am very passionate and keen to learn to fly. So I will stick with the school I am at. "The experience" took me to Boonah becasue of some good referances.

 

Would be nice if they had stickers on hangars at RA AUS schools like on the back of trucks "if you ar enot happy with my driving please call 1800 dob me in"... but they don't. New students just put up with it or quit when they know better....:black_eye:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Good to hear ya weren't put off by your experiance with this shoddy guy Coolmango.

 

I agree with airsick, we should be able to name names, but, in this world of litigation i can see the dramas..Perhaps some sneaky posting is the go, explain exactly what happened in one post and how badly you were ripped off without naming names, then in another post saying, ia am currently training with blah blah after changing from blah blah ..i dunno, might work..anyway, keep it up cool, once ya bitten by the bug you stay bitten.. Look at the bright side, you didnt waste any more $$$ with this guy, imagine if you perceveered and got your licence with him?? may have had to seel the house and car just to affored your first flight..

 

cheers, and keep it up...:thumb_up:

 

 

[Chird65]

Just to play the devils advocate:devil:

 

If your goal is to be the best aviator at any stage then learning everything on the ground before you fly is desirable. I know I try to study each lesson before I arrive and get "real" feedback after the lesson. I would not want to do it this way as I was itching to fly but in the long term it may have been quicker to learn on the ground rather that in the sky.

 

 

It is possible that this instructor had that in mind. (I actually doubt it as he was charging for 1.2 hours)

 

 

I know at Penfield there is always a brief before a flight to cover what is to be covered while flying. Although I have not flown for a while there (or anywhere) I think the greatest positive is they treat you as an individual and let you know what to expect. I was told at the start before handing money over that I would get around 15 min ground work for every hour I flew. In fact this was closer to 15 mins per 45 mins flying. They also have paid for ground school days that are recommended but not enforced so long as you are getting the theory.

 

Every school is different I just don't know what is best.

 

 

[Guest coolmango]

Hi Chird65 - you make a great Devils advocate !

 

Thanks for the input. I actually started this thred with this very thought... (have a look at my first entry... ;) )

 

I only relised the ride I was taken on with my first school experience - becuase experienced pilots I asked asked me if I had a TIF.. " What is a TIF" I asked... and my eyes opened from there.

 

Started this tred as I was hunting down further learning materals to adjunt the materals I already have. It sort of "spun" in to this direction, because of this experience. So I am taking this as seriously as a passionate "aviator learner" can take.

 

My current school does provide a short pre-brief before each flight lesson charged at a very respectable rate. I am happily learning and flying.... and it all makes perfect sense now.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Chird65.. the problem is, without a TIF you can't be sure flying is what you want to do..Being stitched up for ersa's and flight bag's before the guy's even been up is simply a MONEY GRAB.. What if he went on his first lesson and decided it was way to scarey for him and kissed the ground when he got out??..800 bucks down the tube..

 

I can't see a problem with learning the theory before you get the bulk of the flying done, provided your sure thats what ya want. But without some flying its all going to be a bit mistafying don't you think?

 

cheers

 

 

[Chird65]

See I don't make a good advocate.:black_eye: I tend to agree with everything you have said. He looks like he is after the money. As I said if he was open and complete in his comunication we could judge him more fairly:chuffed:

 

 

[Guest coolmango]

A common theme then...

 

Ok.. Just to put some prospective to this...

 

I now have a count of 6 people who have been in touch with me, or I have been told of and confirmed - who have the same experiences without mentioning a school - except that it is in redcliffe and a pilot accessories business is also run from the school location...

 

even that is more information than I have actually put into one of my prvious posts.

 

So who governs RA AUS schools ? seems there is a common theme....

 

So unless someone is actually governing these types of "business" activites I guess..

 

If Ian gets elected will that change anything ? Ian ????

 

 

[Admin]

Ok.. Just to put some prospective to this... I now have a count of 6 people who have been in touch with me, or I have been told of and confirmed - who have the same experiences without mentioning a school - except that it is in redcliffe and a pilot accessories business is also run from the school location...

 

even that is more information than I have actually put into one of my prvious posts.

 

So who governs RA AUS schools ? seems there is a common theme....

 

So unless someone is actually governing these types of "business" activites I guess..

 

If Ian gets elected will that change anything ? Ian ????

Unfortunately I have to stay out of this due to a conflict of interest as that school also runs a pilot supplies shop out of Coolangatta, advertise extensively in our Mag, runs around in a bus and sells things at high prices at Narromine along with a microlight aircraft range but as I said a conflict of interest ;) however can I suggest that if you feel strongly about this that you can always ring your local board member and discuss it with him - just a thought.

I just wonder - is it a conflict of interest as I don't personally gain anything from the Clear Prop shop hence why I am now having to go back to work in the corporate sector for a while to build the savings back up?

 

 

[Guest coolmango]

Hi Ian

 

Thanks for the advice - email duly sent to my local Board member.......

 

 

[nong]

Hey Everybody

 

Tonight I have been writing my own radically modified version of an RAAus BAK exam.

 

Without wishing to be critical of busy RAAus Ops staff, I simply cannot, in good faith, ask students to sit any of the current official series of BAK exam papers.

 

The reason is a matter of strict fairness.

 

Exam questions on a given subject should, I reckon, be limited to the areas specified in the syllabus for that subject, as proscribed in our new Ops Manual.

 

After all, any student should be able to use the syllabus as a guide to what needs to be studied.

 

I think it is unfair, and yes, UN-AUSTRALIAN!! to ask a student to attempt an exam that is riddled with off-subject questions.

 

Not at my school.....no siree.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Onya Nong, sickem mate:thumb_up:

 

 

[Bubbleboy]

This debate is very juicey! In 1998 I attended the Sydney Institute of Technology in Broadway, Sydney, and after studying in the classroom for 18 months part time, that was 3-4 nights a week after work for 3 hours a night, I had my CPL theory and a Cert 3 in Aviation studies. This was done in conjunction with an hour or 2 a weekend of practical flying. It was a very good way to do the theory as it then left your flying instructor with the practical side of it and some one else to bounce theory problems off. I flew through all my theory exams and I am by no means a scholar. In fact I find study difficult. This Course at the time cost me some ridiculous amount like $100 for the year if I remember correctly. What outstanding value! This was a fantastic way to learn from very experienced pilots from Ex Airforce, to airline to GA pilots on every subject. As far as I am aware, that was the final year of that course as the Govt wouldnt subsidise it unless there were a certain number of students enrolled. It was something like 15 students. We averaged about 9 per class. For me, it is a real shame for the industry that these courses didnt last.

 

I went to Bankstown Airport that year and thought I would go to every flying school to check them out. I walked into the first school and stood there like a spare prick at a wedding and everyone ignored me. I walked out of that one, which is still operating today, and into the next one and found the best instructor anyone could have! Through family and mortgage commitments, I have had to give up flying for the last 3 years but now want to convert from GA to Trikes. As mentioned, I have completed all theory exams including instrument and ATPL and am wondering what RAA theory exams I need to do? I have approx 150 hours GA with about a third of that in command.

 

Can anyone who has done the GA to RAA conversion give me some insight as to what I will need to do as far as theory exams? Do the GA exams count for this?

 

Scotty

 

 

[facthunter]

What counts?

 

Radio, x-country, everything! Scotty. In the early days when AUF aircraft were very basic, the big difference was to adjust to the High-drag low-inertia change. This is still applicable to some aircraft, but not so much to ALL, and I think many flyers were U/L only back then. Some "heavy" pilots I know do not seem to like the idea of trikes and U/L's, but some do. UNDERSTAND your aeroplane's characteristicts. I feel there is room for a good , thorough coverage of this area by a dedicated person(s). Just my thoughts.. Nev..

 

 

[Bubbleboy]

Thanks Nev...so the GA exams dont count then. thumb_down

 

Scotty

 

 

[Ultralights]

Im pretty sure that if you already have your CPL, and ATPL exams all passed, then to get your RAAus certificate will only require a few hrs in an RAA aircraft with an instructor. but thats only if you already have the required hours in command of a VH regoed aircraft.

 

when i got my RAAus certificate, i already had about 150 hrs on my PPL, so i only required about 6 hrs in the Jabiru to get my certificate, that did include a short nav though to satisfy the instructor i was capable of navigating before he would sign off on the cross country.

 

so if you have passes in your PPL, CPL and ATPL exams, then im pretty sure you wont need to do any Raaus exams, just show proof of your results to your instructor/cfi/pilot examiner.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, ultralight's is right. If you have passed the BAK for your GFPT, then you don't need to do the RAA version,. If you have passed your PPL cyber exam then you don't need to do the RAA nav/met exam. Just satisfy your instructor you can handel the acft (5 hours), and your away. Providing you are a finacial member of course, and have a student cert or going straight to the pilot cert.

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest brentc]

On the flip side of this I was talking to a guy yesterday. He has RA with plenty of hours and Nav endorsement etc. He want to a GA school at Moorabbin, they told him he would do about 5-7 hours then his flight test (without CTA endorsement). He did 7 hours, then they told him a couple more and he'll be ready for his GFPT ! Needless to say he was not impressed. He also said he was being delayed because he was waiting for his student pilot's licence to come through. Fact is however, that he doesn't need his GFPT or his SPL ! very frustrating!

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea, i hear this alot. Its crap. A bit of CTA stuff to learn that, then a pre licence test, and the test. Providing he's passed his cyber.

 

The test needs to have some nav eliments anyway, so don't get suckered into doing nav's.

 

However i think he does need the spl. Ya can't sit the flying test without one (by my understanding) and we all know how long these can take to come in. But you only need an arn to sit the cyber.

 

But he certainly doesn't need a GFPT, thats ludercrous.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

However i think he does need the spl. Ya can't sit the flying test without one (by my understanding) and we all know how long these can take to come in.

That's my understanding too. You can't do the test or the solo stuff (which may or may not be necessary depending on your circumstances) without an SPL.

 

 

[facthunter]

Clarify.

 

Sorry Scotty, must be some confusion there. The GA stuff covers the RAAus requirements generally, as it is a higher standard. Schools can ask you to do anything in the way of flying, that they can get away with, but the requirements are laid out in the RAAus manual quite clearly, and I think you would have to have a student cert. to do the required hours of training anyhow. ( Which would be aircraft familiarisation and handling and across all sequences with emphasis on engine failure situations. If you do it well then you don't have to do a lot of time + any cross-country training you require).. PS. I only responded to this thread as you wanted input from someone who had come into the scene from GA. Others can fill the details in, better than I .Nev....

 

 

[Guest airsick]

The GA stuff covers the RAAus requirements generally, as it is a higher standard.

Put on your flack jacket Nev.

 

I too converted from GA to RA and only had to do a flight test. I had flown many hours with my brother in RA prior to doing the test so it was very straight forward for me.

 

Before doing this I spoke to Mick Poole about getting him to check me out (there is no school here in Canberra so my local options were limited). He told me that under the new Ops Manual there is no minimum requirement for conversion. The Ops Manual states:

 

if passed a current GFPT or higher licence, have completed such dual training in a high performance recreational aircraft as is deemed necessary by a CFI.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The way Mick explained this to me was that if a PPL (who is clearly the holder of a GFPT or higher licence) wants to convert to RAA then the CFI can sign them off in as little time as they wish. He suggested this was to help overcome the problems with those people converting from aircraft that can be registered GA or RA. For example, someone who was trained in GA registered Jabirus is clearly wasting their money by doing 5 hours in exactly the same aircraft that is RA registered. A CFI can sign off on the licence without even flying with them (although I think you would be hard pressed to find one willing to do it!).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, I am sure this is going to spark some conversation and I will no doubt cop some flack so I am off to sit with Nev and wait... :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note: It is a different story if you want the low performance endorsement in which case you are required to have the 5 hours minimum.