AMPHIBIANS

[Blackhawk]

This has probably been asked before but;

 

" With all the waterways, lakes, dams, river systems and oceans in and around Australia, Why aren't pilots going for a dual purpose aircraft like amphibians rather than being confined to land based aircraft".

 

At least with amphibians you have two choices of landing surface and a vast array of exploration possibilities throughout our great country.

 

Imagine, a group of amphibians flying to some inland lake/s in Qld for a week of camping and Barra fishing.

 

I would like to have an amphibian aircraft in the next 2 years and do a lot of sight seeing/camping trips around Aus and in particular the lakes in the mountains of Tasmania and throw a line for some trout.

 

It is amazing that we have a far better climate than Canada (sunshine especially), but unlike them, we have very few amphibians.

 

I'd like to hear your comments.

 

Graeme

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I've been thinking about amphibians for quite some time now and would love to get one, however there's just nothing out there that's reasonably priced. The new Freedom S100 when I looked was lucky to get into the country for less than $160k, Lightwing made 1 amphibious aircraft only (yes only 1), the Tecnam SeaSky is over $150k and there aren't many others. There's Searey's and Pepstrel's, however these are rag and tube machines for more shorter distance trips. For me there's no long distance float-plane / sea-plane cruisers out there.

 

Perhaps a Mermaid or the new Icon A5 might be the go, although again they are prohibitively expensive.

 

I recently did the numbers on fitting a very popular LSA aircraft on floats, however it wasn't going to work out as it would be a tad heavy for RA rego and would have been limited to GA rego.

 

Apparently there's a J230 Jabiru being built on floats in Melbourne. I am yet to find the builder who could be a police officer - if anyone knows him, please let me know!

 

 

[wags]

Tasmanian Lakes

 

Blackhawk, what you say is what makes water flying so much fun, in fact it's the most fun you can have with your pants on (hope that doesn't get censored)!

 

You wrote... I would like to have an amphibian aircraft in the next 2 years and do a lot of sight seeing/camping trips around Aus and in particular the lakes in the mountains of Tasmania and throw a line for some trout.

 

Great idea, but as one who was involved heavily in float operations over quite a long time (10 yrs+) in Tasmania the idea of flying into a lake in Tassie and dropping a line isn't as easy as it seems. All lakes in Tassie belong to the Hydro Electric Authority and they restrict float ops to the larger more exposed lakes. With the strength of wind that blows in those Latitudes it really restricts water operations approx 90% of the time.

 

The smaller lakes are OK but don't get caught landing on one without a permit. Just when you think there is nobody around - there always is! Permits can be arranged but they take a long time to organise and you have to have really good reasons - fishing is a good reason in my mind, but not to an office bound bureaucrat! Then of course there is always the time your engine begins to run rough and as a precaution you need to land and check it out!

 

Good luck with your plans. You can rest assured as soon as there is an LSA type a/c produced that allows approx 500 nmls range and payload sufficient for 2 folks plus camping gear... I'll be the first in line. The chances of that happening in our realm is small, so we really are stuck with GA type a/c (such as the Murphy range from Canada etc).

 

Wags.

 

 

[Ultralights]

one of the many reasons i had listed when deciding to buy a Savannah, (when i get the cash) is because it can be fitted with floats quite easily..

 

 

[facthunter]

Appeal ?

 

I think an amphibian is a bit like a place near the sea. ( A nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there). The idea seems good , but the reality is a bit more difficult. Consider the corrosion, extra maintenance. risk of striking a half submerged log/ crocadile and apparently you can get very wet trying to moor it when the water is a bit deeper than you expected. Also the extra weight and drag is always with you. You fella's buy one and tell me about your experiences. A relative of mine had a weekender opposite Rathmines and in the late 50's there was plenty of Catalina activity to see ,(and a few Sunderlands/Sandringhams? too). so I'm a bit hooked, but I think it would have to have at least 2 big radials (don't mean tyres) on the wings to really get me in . Go for it , you are only alive once,(as far as I know) Nev....

 

 

[wags]

Getting Wet

 

All those things you mention facthunter are true, but with good operating techniques you can reduce your risks and wet appendages!

 

One of the reasons floating hulls are better than float aircraft in our domain (LSA), is that you don't have to carry the extra weight of floats even with the allowed increase in Max TOW... your hull will support you OK. RAAus regs already allow for retracts in that scenario.

 

This little number comes as close as any I have come across (as yet) ... www.aeroprakt.kiev.ua/eng_html/crafts/A-24.htm

 

Haven't seen one in the flesh and other than visiting the website I can't offer good critique on it, but going by the specs it's as good a number as anything currently offered; or for that matter in the planning stages (from the little I know - and my wife reminds me everyday that I know f*#k all anyway).

 

If you have a desire to fly off water, spend a few bucks and take an hour with a Company offering float endorsements - guarantee you'll be hooked! Then you can go catch the ones you really want to hook.

 

Wags.

 

 

[Guest Carl Booth]

amphibian

 

Some great info feed-back ahead of me. I flew off fresh water lakes in Sth Germany for several years (no amphib though) and found it then (apart from Paragliding with the sea eagles on the coast) the most exhilerating form of flying . But ..... I was alone ! Nobody else had anything like it, they all flew with wheels. So I'd be relegated to fly my little floatplane alone .. along the coasts, bathing areas, slalom between the yacht masts, sneaking up behind high speed boats and buzz/bombing them etc etc, until the "lone albatross" got sick of the isolation. I was admittedly not into long distance ocean/coastal trips. If you want to tackle this, make sure you really do have some mates to go with you though. Needless to say the salt and UV are going to bash hell out of your toy mate. The guy flying his beautiful old biplane radial at Townsville pulls his "Red Baron" Machine out of the water each evening .. and he does everythiong alone ! He also is relegated to flying alone .. rather sad. I like company when I fly . . think about it

 

 

[TechMan]

All those things you mention facthunter are true, but with good operating techniques you can reduce your risks and wet appendages!One of the reasons floating hulls are better than float aircraft in our domain (LSA), is that you don't have to carry the extra weight of floats even with the allowed increase in Max TOW... your hull will support you OK. RAAus regs already allow for retracts in that scenario.

It depends what domain you are referring to (I am assuming amateur built/certificated factory built). I have not seen any reg changes from the CASA side regarding retract for Light Sport Aircraft even though the US have ammended their regs. I believe it is on the CASA 'to do' list, but with sport aviation having a bee's empenage of 1%'s priority within CASA, it will need to be hassled to get the change for retracts on waterborne aircraft through for our rules regarding LSA. At the moment it will still be repositionable undercarriage. Maybe someone knows more?

 

A good amphib plane to consider for a smaller price that the Freedom could be the Super Petrel from Brazil, being imported by Ken Horlock. He will have his first kit finished soon and will be bringing them in as LSA shortly afterwards.

 

Chris

 

 

[Modest Pilot]

Always interested. I've flown a mates Searay in Qld. (since written off in water landing accident!) First it takes about three hours of washing and spraying with Inox after operating in sea water. Our Qld water has an extra high saline rating, so I think you should go composite. To operate inside present RAAus weights and the sort of engine that's light enough, you wind up with a high aspect glider like wing to get the darn thing off the water, not really ideal for cross country work. Saw the Aeroprat at Oshkosh last year looks like a good formula but it's metal and far to heavy for RAAus.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

That's one of the problems with the Freedom. It has a massively long glider-type wing and fine prop to get off short, however this limits the top end once airborne and makes for a bumpy ride - great for the colder climates. To get the best out of it and get the 100+ quoted knots, it needs a variable pitch prop and this adds a large cost and weight to the machine making it less attractive again. Everything seems to be a compromise these days, particularly on floats.

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

All this talk about amphibs ... think I'll go and dig out "Porco Rosso" for another view - the greatest seaplane movie yet to be made :thumb_up:

 

 

[Riley]

Dearth of amphib/float machines?

 

Perhaps another factor which may or may not have some effect on the lack of impetus with working off water is the requirement for a sea/floatplane driver to have a marine vessel operators licence?? I've been advised that, until the hull/floats actually depart the surface, the airplane is, in fact, a boat. And if you think Casa are sometimes confusing, try the Dept of Harbours & Marine.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Riley, interesting point. We went through this whole process in Vic a couple of years ago when my school purchased a float plane. In the end after lots of too'ing and fro'ing MSV (Marine Safety Victoria) agreed that as long as the Float Endorsement offered by the school contained common sense components of water and boating safety and the required gear was carried, such as life jackets etc, then a boat licence wasn't required.

 

This has been a topic of debate for quite some time as there are many believers out there who say that aircraft rego is a Federal System, whereas boat licencing is at state level, so therefore Federal over-rides state. I can't confirm nor deny this.

 

In the end we wrote them a submission containing the float plane syllabus offered by the school and a sample of the endorsement exam that we would be offering, which included questions from the Marine Safety Handbook. They seemed happy enough with this, although we have nothing in writing in return.

 

Interestingly the Float Plane operator at Williamstown (GA) has a Coxain's qualification, but no boat rego on the aircraft.

 

 

[IanR]

From the research I have done in NSW it is a requirement to have a boat licence and the aircraft has to be registered as a boat - anyone got any other info ? I have always wanted to do a floating hull endorsement - one day !

 

 

[wags]

Water Licences

 

IanR - we initially picked up the Maule M7's we imported from Bankstown and eventually used them only in Tasmania. While operating in NSW we had to have them registered as boats, plus the pilots needed NSW Recreational Boating Licences. The NSW Maritime Authorities initially required Coxon Certificates, but after considerable persuasion eventually saw reason and allowed a normal Recreation Boating Licence to be used. Anyone operating in NSW now will probably be able to answer what the Authorities there currently require, but doubt if requirements have changed.

 

Interestingly our insurance Company insisted on the all these Licences until we started our operations in Tasmania, then (presumably) because Tasmanian Authorities didn't press for Boat Rego or Boat Licences that requirement was dropped.

 

Carrying of life jackets, flares, an anchor, paddles etc are required by Authorities everywhere and this subtracts markedly from useful load. I repeat what I said earlier - float flying is fun, real fun; but you can't go too far at any great speed or carry too much gear without range penalty.

 

Techman - I would of thought if landing gear wasn't "down & locked" it was in an unsafe condition and could be considered in a state of retraction... but I get your point about "repositioning".

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

(WARNING – to all my groaning anti-fans out there - This will be longish post because there is a bit of variety in it from posts above ).

 

 

• Brent C may well be right when he said Lightwing only built one amphib – but in fact there have been several (although you may not realise this).
   
   
  

 

 

Lightwing were quite cunning. They built a ‘float tray’ that goes on a normal Lightwing. You hoist the aircraft, drop the mainwheels off it, wheel the tray underneath and bolt it on, hook up the bits and pieces etc and the whole procedure takes only an hour! The aircraft I flew was just one of the school’s regular trainers on wheels for most of its life.

 

 

This meets a lot of comments above – the amphib is truly great flying but you may not want it all the time. The Lightwing option gave you two aircraft in one (a concept I am pinching for the Vision 600s so a small school can have both trike gear and taildragger in a single aircraft).

 

 

I very much enjoyed the Lightwing amphib and the performance was not too bad at all with a R582.

 

 

• Although the amphib is a damn sight more practical than pure floats the big hiccup is finding somewhere to operate them (see some sound posts above). A lot of water expanses are much more tightly regulated/restricted than land areas. This is particularly if you want to operate fresh water and reduce the corrosion.
   
   
  

 

 

I was really fired up about expanding my school until I met this reality. I am right next door to two massive lakes (Wivenhoe and Somerset in SE Qld) that are usually deserted and only a couple of minutes flying puts you on the water from Watts Bridge.

 

 

No way! The Water Board would not have a bar of it – despite two years of letter writing and a lot of pressure. The main issue was litigation. Apparently a number of years ago somebody spread a Cessna float plane on Somerset killing four. So that lingered and it was easier to say NO!

 

 

• Authorities and Licensing. Another hiccup (at least around here). You do have to have some form of license to operate and that is a formal powerboat license for when the machine is on the water. No problem – I just applied. Big problem! I was met with stunned amazement when I asked where they wanted the aircraft so I could be tested. Nobody seemed keen to climb into an aircraft to do the testing and I was firmly told that it would have to be a boat. I explained that I had no interest in boats and surely it would be better to test me on the machine I would be operating as other factors were involved. Could not budge them!
   
   
  

 

 

On the other hand I had nothing but help and courtesy from the Electricity people. I was interested in where all the power lines were crossing the Brisbane River (power lines being a much more significant factor to float aircraft than wheeled aircraft). I got detailed maps within 48 hours and best wishes!

 

 

It is a bit tragic. I class float flying as one of my all time great flying experiences that everyone should have at least one dabble with. But there are a lot of unfortunate hidden barriers there that you should check out first.

 

 

Aye

 

 

Tony

 

 

[Yenn]

Around here an amphibian would be great and we have a Petrel kit due here in September. Should be nice to fly with all the waterways behind islands, being like wide rivers. Gladstone was a seaplane base during WW2, but I don't think an ultralight seaplane would handle the harbour waves and the creek is too crowded.

 

 

[Blackhawk]

Hi Tony,

 

I would have thought that if a power boat license was required as well, to operate an Amphibian/Float plane you naturally do the test in a power boat, not a plane.

 

It is then up to you to operate that aircraft in the confines of the boating regulations until you leave the water. Seems straight forward to me.

 

I'm really thinking of building a full composite Osprey2 which will be under the 615kg limit and powered with a 120hp engine.

 

Graeme

 

 

[Blackhawk]

Yen,

 

I lived in Gladstone for nearly 20 years up til 5 years ago.

 

There was a cessna float plane that used to land in the marina then taxi over to the boat ramp at the Yacht Club. It was quite a regular visitor.

 

Graeme

 

 

[Guest brentc]

There's no point dwelling on the past Tony, there are plenty out there "doing" floats all over the country. The Seaplane Pilots Association of Australia is a good place to start for information on this - they are quite an active group.

 

Graeme - I know of an Osprey II owner (and Model 1 for that matter), if you are interested I can put you in touch. He has a 6 cylinder Jab, but has not flown off the water yet as he has a few concerns about it. (I'm sure it would be ok though, he is just being careful) He flew his Osprey 1 of the water for many years and still has it in the hangar. He built an Osprey II years ago but it was written off on the first flight from the paddock when a stick flung up and severed the fuel line and the aircraft was lost in a fierce fire. After that by amazing coincidence he was I believe given another partially completed Osprey II kit.

 

Pretty much if you are allowed to operate a boat on the water, you can operate a plane around here, as long as you abide by the rules of the waterways. I was even told by Parks Victoria that landing on Albert Park Lake in Melbourne CBD was possible with permission and permission was likely, because they used to operate speed boats off Albert Park Lake and the only real reason why you can't boat on it now is because it's too shallow. There's no environmental damage that can be done on it because it has concrete all around it.

 

 

[Blackhawk]

Thanks Brent,

 

I wouldn't mind contacting him for some info.

 

Graeme

 

 

[Downunder]

The danger of Amphibians........from a boaties perspective......

 

LiveLeak.com - Pontoon Plane Pilot Buzzes Canadian Boaters ~ Close Call Take-Off

 

Made me shudder anyway.....

 

 

[Blackhawk]

There was an amphibian prototype being built in north Qd. a couple of years ago called "SEA EAGLE". Does anyone know what happened to it.

 

I suppose like a lot of good designs, it too, has fallen of the drawing board.

 

Graeme

 

 

[farri]

Graeme,

 

Are you refering to the aircraft that Bill Stark of Townsville was building,if so, Bill passed away a few years ago and I think the project was put on hold.

 

I`ve flown an Austflight Drifter on floats and it was great,the problem with aircraft on floats is that if they are used on salt water, the maintenance required is high.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

 

[storchy neil]

hey brentc you forgot about the :big_grin:flysynthesis storch with the jaby motor thiny:sorry: with floats was at avolon last year neil