ABIT Report

July 29, 2008

I am ashamed to say that so many of our fellow members have behaved like lemmings over a cliff!

I have just read the report on the ADSB JCP (Thats the ASTRA ADSB implimentation Joint Consultation Paper) and I am stunned. Fair enough if you object and with fair reason or valid comments, fine by me, but to just submit plagiarism and nonsense plagiarised at that is really bringing a lack of credibility upon the RAA.

Fortunately I think the overall majority of folk who make the decisions here will see the wheat from the chaff, but some of our folk have really made the lot of us look stupid. Just like the Catholics rejecting promotion of condoms in AIDS ravaged parts of Africa!

Read this objectively before you slag at me for being so harsh. And for those who wish to be lazy I have highlighted the sticky bits in red and have not added any text at all.

Seems the RAA magazine articles and scare mongering worked just like the WMD in Iraq news from the CIA and MI5 et al.

7

Light Sports & Recreational Aviation Views (individuals)

7.1 By far the majority of responses came from this group. While it is not possible to classify all

of the responses, in general, they can be grouped as follows:

•

Support the proposal without change 3

•

The proposal may be acceptable with changes (various exemptions) 43

•

Do not support the proposal 61

•

Do not support the proposal (form letter response) 59

7.2 Input included:

•

Most objections to the proposal (including from many who rejected the proposal

outright) related only to operations in Class G airspace and at CTAF® airports. Many

respondents clearly identified that they were only commenting on the mid-2014

requirements.

•

A significant number of respondents stated that they understand the safety and

operational benefits associated with the proposal and the proposal sounds good, but

they would not support it because they believe the exemptions available for their

operation (particularly gliding and hang-gliding) would be eroded over time.

•

A number of respondents who suggested that all aircraft – including unpowered

aircraft – should be required to be ADS-B equipped.

•

A considerable number of respondents had not read or had misunderstood the JCP,

with objections including:

•

Ultralight flyers shouldn’t be expected to fund their own avionics (they would have

been eligible for cross industry funding).

•

Recreational aviation has never been consulted on this (a number of groups

• Hang gliders should be exempt (they would be).

J:angry:

representing recreational aviation are active participants of ABIT).

July 29, 2008

Hows the new VH registered RV coming along J430 ? :big_grin:

July 29, 2008

J430..... save me looking the report up, URL?

July 29, 2008

Geeez you lot are lazier than I am.......

OK try here

http://www.astra.aero/ABIT/meeting_reports.aspx

plenty to read there, but the specific report is the second last one of meeting 12. Now you have them all to read!.

HPD....... nicely thank you! Is that a hint you want me out of RAA, and they just sent me a fancy new plastic card too!

J:thumb_up:

July 29, 2008

I am ashamed to say that so many of our fellow members have behaved like lemmings over a cliff!I have just read the report on the ADSB JCP (Thats the ASTRA ADSB implimentation Joint Consultation Paper) and I am stunned. Fair enough if you object and with fair reason or valid comments, fine by me, but to just submit plagiarism and nonsense plagiarised at that is really bringing a lack of credibility upon the RAA.

Fortunately I think the overall majority of folk who make the decisions here will see the wheat from the chaff, but some of our folk have really made the lot of us look stupid. Just like the Catholics rejecting promotion of condoms in AIDS ravaged parts of Africa!

HPD....... nicely thank you! Is that a hint you want me out of RAA, and they just sent me a fancy new plastic card too

j430, I said nothing about your membership (interesting what you want see there) though after reading your comments, I'm wondering just what you are doing in RAAus ?

Admin · July 29, 2008

I think a pertinent point that has been lost in the quick knee jerk reaction is:

(particularly gliding and hang-gliding)

John G · July 29, 2008

I would suggest that forum members read the report and form their own opinions.

The downlaod PDF link is:

http://www.astra.aero/downloads/ABIT/ABIT12_IP011_JCP_responses_by_stakeholder_grouping.pdf [/url]

I have also attached the PDF to this post.

I will leave it up to others to question J430 on his motivation and allegiances. Interestingly GA pilots were split 11 for and 11 against. If SAAA wishes to sell their members out for 30 pieces of silver that is their business but I think RA-Aus members are somewhat more astute and see the real end game sought by Air Services and don’t want to be bought.

On reading J430’s post and the picture he tried to paint, versus what is actually in the JCP response report, I suspect that in a previous life J430 must have been the one that coached the CIA on how to handle the WMD issue.

ABIT12_IP011_JCP_responses_by_stakeholder_grouping.pdf

Admin · July 30, 2008

This is an interesting thread and had it not been for that interest it would have been deleted and warnings etc given for its unfriendliness that is not acceptable here - there is a way to say things and a way not to.

We also will not accept one forum member antagonising or bad mouthing another one - we all have different opinions, there is an appropriate way to say your opinion and an appropriate way to disagree but this thread started off the wrong way which is an invitation to be given time in the sin bin by way of suspension - the same goes for responses.

However, as I said this is an interesting subject so a warning - discuss it but please do so appropriately.

July 30, 2008

I think an important attribute in a progressive organisation (RAA) is to be able to read the writing on the wall.

I suspect that historically the association that looked after horse breeders when Henry ford put out a paper seeking thoughts on the introduction of the model T probably thought it was a bad thing and bleeted long and loud about it...to no avail.

I suspect that ADSB is the same. I believe that it is inevitable and that it will come. The only people who dont want it are the smallest and most irrelevant groups of all the stakeholders involved.

As such I would suggest that our association should (and may already be doing so) move from a position of pure opposition to a position that seeks to get the best possible outcomes for us given what I believe to be the inevitability of the introduction.

I personally responded to the NPRM and supported it, but with changes.

While I personally would like things to remain exactly as they are I dont believe that is in any way an achieveable outcome. The fact that much of the rest of the world is also looking at going the same way almost ensures that we will follow, or lead (personally I like follow in this case)

As to my motivations and allegiances...... this post contains them all. My formal training is as an avionics radio tech, however the only avionics work I do now is my own aircraft. My current employer is involved in militay avionics, however my role has exactly 0% to do with that part of the business.

regards

Andy

July 30, 2008

Andy, sensible reply!

HPD...... Maybe in futire I will not play with your funny little games..... When you make mention of my VH registered Rv coming along, one tends to think you are taking the mickey out of me............ As for being an RAA memeber I started there enroute to GA, and keep my membership for times when I need to fly others a/c and need to be licensed accordingly. I could say no and save the money I suppose.

John G

Now to a serious question and thank you for asking. My motivation and allegiances are for safety, efficiency and common sense in moving forward in the world. I have no vested interest at all in ATC, Commercial or RPT costs, sales of hardwrae or anything. I do however believe that the bigger end of town, thats regional RPT and above deserve the highest levels of surveillence possible in non CTA aerodromes, and that the costs of operations in non radar space can be reduced, and when the old radar heads need replacing we can do it with a newer technology that over the same time will give far greater ATC coverage for the fare paying passenger, then we all should support it.

Whats more there will be a safety benefit for GA/RAA as a by product.

If SAAA wishes to sell their members out for 30 pieces of silver that is their business but I think RA-Aus members are somewhat more astute and see the real end game sought by Air Services and don’t want to be bought.

= ABSOLUTE NONSENSE, there is enough misconception with the need for you to add more.

Interestingly GA pilots were split 11 for and 11 against.

You are quite correct in pointing this out.......that is 100% pathetic, most GA folk did not have a good organisation like the RAA, telling them how to vote! I bet most never knew about the JCP!Your bringing that point up however tragic it is, happens to be irrelevant to my post which was about the poor reflection brought on the RAA and related groups by the results.

REMEMBER THIS............ the RAA our RAA, actively promoted to its members with a misleading campaign to get NO votes submitted, and it worked, problem is the results showed them up as the submitters did not know the facts and had not read the information......its plain as day.

As for your last remark...........you could try a little harder!

IAN

I think a pertinent point that has been lost in the quick knee jerk reaction is:(particularly gliding and hang-gliding)

I am glad you brought this up. However, while I can not speak on behalf of the GFA and HGFA, the RAA are guilty as charged for promoting a fear campaign and encouraging everyone to vote no in a redneck kind of way. Again I was more focussed on what happened within our own ranks.There is another thread here about the time the RAA magazine was published and I had my 20c + GST worth on the way they were telling members how to think and putting words in their mouths. Thats exactly what they did and did it very well.

All the best for now, and in closing, I just hope that it never happens, but if a Savannah or Jabiru with no mode C transponder, (or later ADSB & Mode C combined), smacks into a Q400/B737/A320 at a regional CTAF R just as the jet breaks clear of IMC, those who say "We should not participate" will look back and realise what a mistake they made.

J

(Moderated - language. J430, you are pushing it - clean up or get out! - Ian)

(changed my mind - J430, a 1 week suspension)

Admin · July 30, 2008

J430 - a 1 week suspension

antzx6r · July 30, 2008

Whoow, that was intence!

Moving right along, Ian is quite correct. This is an interesting topic. The trouble is, there is a lot of smoke and mirrors and here say on what this thing is, how its going to be implemented and where.

So it would be nice to here from some who have looked into it, and pass on some info on the proposed "deal". We don't need any "I heard from a reliable source" as it only adds to the confusion. Try to keep personal thoughts out of it. i.e. "its expencive so I don't want it". Instead try "I heard airservices want everyone everywhere to install it at there own expence. Is this true?"

Lets become the most informed, not the most misinformed.

Has anyone worked out how this is really going to impact on RAA (and all rec flyers - saaa) Are they proposing we all get cross-industry funding and is this going to be offered for the forseeable future or limited only untill airlines decide to stop funding when they get sick of handing out $10000 cheques? Helpful comments please. No pprune slandering matches.

facthunter · July 30, 2008

ADSB OUT.

This WAS kicked around when it was topical. The cost of 10,000 is a major percentage of the cost of the "bottom end" (cost-wise) aircraft in our organisation. This is for ADSB out only. The occupant receives NO data relating to other aircraft.

What would be an acceptible percentage up take? I would suggest 100% or close, to make any sense.

If an aircraft has an electrical malfunction, does it have to land prematurely?

It has been suggested that the component be hot-wired. so that it cannot be turned off. The big brother possibility. Can anyone guarantee that this will not happen?

What is the current draw of the unit?

If you have a FADEC controlled system of engine management, the current draw of the ADSB would be of concern, IF you had an alternator failure. Time in the air after the failure.

What would be the penalty for someone who turned off his ADSB unit?

With a collection of aircraft at say a fly-in, how much "clutter" around a point would require much the same vigilance with the MK1 eyeball, as we need now.

What is the assurance that the whole system cannot be tampered with electronically?

Could the regulator/ defence system in australia ever do away with some form of primary radar as a fall-back. Would any terrorist not avail himself of a set of wire-cutters to make himself invisible, as a matter of priority.

I'm ready to be convinced by a good argument which uses results which are verifiable & substantiated and not arranged to arrive at a preselected conclusion. UNTIL then I'll back the RAAus stand. Nev...

Yenn · July 30, 2008

I responded to the survey and said that there should be changes. To expect aircraft owners to foot the bill where the main aimis to reduce the costs to government is not on in my opinion. I am all for ADSB, but at no cost to us and have problems with fitting it. I have just fitted an Icom A200 radio in the Corby and it was a major challenge to find where to put it. I would probably have to tow a glider to fit ADSB.

John G · July 30, 2008

The Facts: JCP Responses by various organisations

Breaking my own rules here. I said I did not intend to post on this site, however a lot of mis-information going around. If you manage to read and digest all the information in the the following attachments you will have a better grasp of what the argument is that RA-Aus is putting to Government.

By no means supporting the person but some other views:

www.dicksmithflyer.com.au\ADS-B_Costs.php

www.dicksmithflyer.com.au\ADS-B_misleading_info.php

I has some other pertinent submissions but Ian's upload limit prevents me posting them.

(here they are - downloadable from the RAAus category in the downloads sections of the forums - Ian)

http://www.recreationalflying.com/forum/downloads.php?do=file&id=5&act=down

http://www.recreationalflying.com/forum/downloads.php?do=file&id=4&act=down

http://www.recreationalflying.com/forum/downloads.php?do=file&id=3&act=down

RA-Aus JCP Response.pdf

ASAC JCP Response.pdf

AOPA JCP Response.pdf

RA-Aus JCP Response.pdf