Can you read this without feeling anguish?

[bushpilot]

Geez IFR Duck, you have gone to some effort here; you must have flat finger tips after that marathon.. ... Thanks! And it's a near text-book in itself.

 

I have arranged to do a bit more IFR training (did 5 hours years ago in GA), just in case. Don't plan to go looking for trouble, but I like the option of having half a chance if things turn ugly (well, gloomy..).

 

Have you ever tried working off the virtual instruments in Garmin 296? (I have a just released 495, which is similar but with more rapid refresh rate).

 

There's one other aspect that I'd be interested in hearing your (or others) opinion on: If I am flying along at 5,000' with patchy cloud below, and it starts to close-in, what to do? Duck down through a hole and hope there is enough ceiling room underneath, or stay on top (illegally) and wait for it to break up? I'm assuming a few out there would have had the experience..

 

Thanks,

 

Chris

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

...flying along at 5,000' with patchy cloud below, and it starts to close-in, what to do? Duck down through a hole and hope there is enough ceiling room underneath, or stay on top (illegally) and wait for it to break up? I'm assuming a few out there would have had the experience

IMHO, NEVER get above the unknown - safer to scud run below

 

...better still, go and get some IF time with an instructer and get it out of your system :thumb_up:

 

 

[facthunter]

What to do?.

 

Don't fly over the top and hope, unless you know from contact ahead that the sky is clearing, and don't descend and hope that the ground is visible under the cloud base . Don't wait till these are the only options. I am not against the idea of having tuition in instrument flight technique as long as it doesn't lead you into pushing the boundaries,and beware, recency is part of the deal. It is a high workload high discipline situation that should not be entered into lightly. I am a great believer in the statement that you make your own luck, essentially. Nev..

 

 

[poteroo]

Agree with Facthunter - you just cannot stay on-top in the hope that you can descend to your destination VFR. And this applies even if you are capable of radio naving.

 

As for descending thru or close to a cloud deck - get some training in this...it needs a steady and controlled configuration or things can get very pear shaped.....quickly.

 

As for scud running.....well, without being low level trained, and current.......you're asking for trouble. Even then.....it's a last resort.

 

happy days,

 

 

[motzartmerv]

If youve gotten yourslef into that situation then you have already broken the rules.. If the sky is more then half full of cloud then you shouldn't go over the top, How would you navigate above the cloud?? by gps?? what if it craps out??

 

Turn around go back to legal VMC conditions, descend underneath and follow your planned track underneath cloud base..If vis is getting to bad (close to 5 kms) then its time to find somewhere to park her up and go to the pub..NEVER let that door shut behind you..tip tip tip..:thumb_up:

 

 

[Guest airsick]

If youve gotten yourslef into that situation then you have already broken the rules.. If the sky is more then half full of cloud then you shouldn't go over the top,

Going on top in more than 4/8 isn't necessarily illegal. There is a section in the VFR flight guide on this on page 74.

 

• VFR flight on top of more than 4/8 cloud is available provided that:

 

 

 

 

 



– VMC can be maintained during the entire flight, including climb, cruise

 

 

 

 

 



and descent.

 

 

 

 

 



– For VFR flight on top, the visual position fixing requirements of section (B) or the other navigational requirements of AIP ENR 1.1 must be met

 

 

 

 

 



– Prior to conducting a VFR flight on top of more than 4/8 cloud, the pilot in command must ensure that current forecasts and observations (including those available in-flight observations) indicate that conditions in the area of, and during the period of, the planned descent below the cloud layer will permit the descent to be conducted in VMC.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Trouble is that with flights over the top, you need to be signed off for the use of Navaids as per enr 1.1 and probably the only way you'll get that is if you have a NVFR rating or IFR.

 

I'm a frequent over-the-top aviator but I only ever do it when I KNOW for sure what is underneath and only if I can absolutely confirm it's clear at my destination. Luckily I'm in a position that if I have to go down through it, I know I can do it safely, however if I wasn't competent on instruments and in an appropriately equipped aircraft I would stay well clear.

 

I'd suggest that if you are not instrument equipped and or don't know how to use them competently, then VFR over the top should be avoided completely if over 4/8.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Trouble is that with flights over the top, you need to be signed off for the use of Navaids as per enr 1.1

OR get your fixes as required by 19.2.1

 

When navigating by visual reference to the ground or water, the pilot in command must positively fix the aircraft’s position by visual reference to features shown on topographical charts at intervals not exceeding 30 minutes. When flying over the sea, visual reference features may include rocks and reefs and fixed man-made objects which are marked on suitable charts and are readily identifiable from the air.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So if you can get fixes every 30 minutes then you are good to go. It reinforces your point of being sure of the weather at the other end though.

 

PS. My posts are not meant to be construed as saying if there is cloud then take off anyway!!! :)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Airsick.. my post was mainly in regard to RAA acft.. but there is a cao on it..

 

The RAA website has some info on it..

 

In addition an aircraft cannot be operated on top of cloud which is more extensive than scattered unless it is fitted with serviceable flight and navigation instruments as specified in CAO 20.18 appendix IV – which includes an artificial horizon and directional gyro. Other restrictions apply, see AIP ENR 1.1 19.2. Taking all into account it is probably unwise for an ultralight aircraft to operate above any cloud cover.

 

So uless ur ultralight is fitted with the right gear..its probably not the go....:thumb_up:

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Don't all CAO's apply unless otherwise exempt in the Ops Manual>

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, of course, but my point was how many rec acft are equipped to legally fly over the top?..

 

cheers

 

 

[ifr duck]

You're climbimg a stairway to heaven!

 

Bush Pilot.

 

From a safety point of view it is much better to fly on top than scud run. However that doesn't mean you can't get into deep doggy do, doing it!

 

The regs are written in the blood of fearless and inexperienced pilots so thats were you should start.

 

The reason why its impractical (and unsafe) to fly over more than 4/8 of cloud is that you navigate horizontally, not vertically. When viewing the ground at an oblique angle, 4/8ths of cloud makes visual navigation very, very difficult, (especially if you're close to the cloud tops or the cloud is deep), and in certain conditions and terrain, nearly impossible. You can be displaced only a couple of miles from a waypoint and miss it, and then have no chance at all of locating it. That means you can get technically lost very quickly.

 

In these conditions you should be D.R. Navigating, know your drift, and be keeping time to 15 second ETAs. Then whether you see the waypoint or not, you continue flying your exact headings and time intervals, having marked your dead reckoning or time intervals on your map, and trying to navigate visually to those positions. Sounds like fun? It is actually and its amazing how accurate it can be, but it takes practice and preparation.

 

But what if the cloud solids up or closes behind you and you are caught on top? (Back to the previous discussion)

 

The golden rule of flying on top these days as regards safety, is that you must get underneath immediately if 4/8ths looks like being exceeded, and there must be plenty of room under the cloud for you to continue underneath in safe visual flight.

 

The truth these days is that virtually all pilots carry GPS, and it is a much more accurate and reliable navigator than the MK. 1 eyeball. It is also true that it rarely fails or gives erroneous information, and you can always carry a backup. In addition to that you should be flying your headings and times anyway, and in the big picture, everything should match in together.

 

You should never fly over any cloud, that if in the event of an engine failure, you cannot maintain visual flight. Its that simple. Full stop.

 

I started flying when Ponteus was a pilot and still really enjoy 'minimalistic' navigation using a calibrated jock strap, (heard of them?) a one in 60 rule and a set of Mattern Dividers!!

 

If you get into trouble over cloud, turning round and going back is usually the best option. However, as in getting into bad weather, keep your cool, and as they say, aviate, navigate and communicate. The worst thing is to panic and think you have had it. As Bob Hoover once said, fly it as far into the accident as possible!!

 

Take it easy.:big_grin:

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

nav used to be a skill

 

But these days?

 

 

 

[bushpilot]

Hey IFR Duck - Thanks for the detailed post; some really useful advice and observations there..

 

No, haven't heard of a 'calibrated jock strap'; the closest thing I know of is made of rubber with friction ribs a set distance apart - but I'm sure this is not what you are talking about .. Please explain..

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

ifr duck, I agree with the majority of your thoughts/veiws on 'cloud' flying but,

 

From a safety point of view it is much better to fly on top than scud run. However that doesn't mean you can't get into deep doggy do, doing it!

I'm wondering what sort of pilot/aircraft combo that statement is aimed at ? It seems to be at odds with the outlines you've given.

 

Some thoughts -

 

The majority of Rec Av aircraft can be landed in small padocks or on roads if things get to bad - watch for power lines.

 

Around the majority of Oz, on top of eight octas is not the best place for the average ultralight.

 

 

[Ben Longden]

178 seconds is also the title of a CASA vid, and is based on the research of a large number of incidents where a VMC flight became IMC with catastrophic results.

 

Talking to an instructor after watching the Vid - as a safety seminar at Shepp, I was told the vision of flight through cloud was brilliant and as real as it gets.

 

Ben

 

 

[motzartmerv]

HPD, ontop of 8 8th's is no place for ANY ultralight..(imho)

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest Graham Lea]

The majority of Rec Av aircraft can be landed in small padocks or on roads if things get to bad - watch for power lines.

 

Around the majority of Oz, on top of eight octas is not the best place for the average ultralight.

 

Yeh? NO fixed wing a/c can be landed other than on an airstrip built for that purpose without the *great* possibility of damage/injury. If you are on top of 8octas how do you get to the paddock/road? Through the power lines?

 

Seems you are not current with your certificate. The manual says what conditions you should fly in. "Average"?? Oh you mean you have done it but the rest of us "averagers" shouldn't? What is the critera for doing it then???

 

I just love these posts - they imply that you can do something which is

 

against all the rules. No wonder the GA people think some of us are nuts!

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Yeh? NO fixed wing a/c can be landed other than on an airstrip built for that purpose without the *great* possibility of damage/injury. If you are on top of 8octas how do you get to the paddock/road? Through the power lines?

Youre combining two posters there Graham.

 

Seems you are not current with your certificate. The manual says what conditions you should fly in. "Average"?? Oh you mean you have done it but the rest of us "averagers" shouldn't? What is the critera for doing it then???

I did'nt realise that the term 'scud running' had a defined cloud base height. As you and other posters piont out, there are rules to follow - I took that as a given.

 

I just love these posts - they imply that you can do something which is against all the rules. No wonder the GA people think some of us are nuts!

...GA think some of us are nuts! ...

 

 

[ifr duck]

Please Explain!!

 

'From a safety point of view it is much better to fly on top than scud run'

 

This refers to the fact that you are not going to enter cloud suddenly or become non visual. Because of this you are not going to lose control or run into a hill.

 

You have time to consider your situation, turn round, get help etc. and you will not be under the gut wrenching anxiety that paralyzes pilots in the 178 seconds to live scenario. You have a very good chance of learning from your experience, unlike scud running. The statistic overwhelmingly support this conclusion.

 

'The regs are written in the blood of fearless and inexperienced pilots so thats where you should start.'

 

 

 

It goes without saying that we should all know the regs for the type of operation we are contemplating. If not, we have no business getting into the aeroplane and we risk becoming an example to others.

 

High Plains Drifter said,

 

'Around the majority of Oz, on top of 8/8 is not the best place to be for the average ultralight'

 

'You should never fly over any cloud, that if in the event of an engine failure, you cannot maintain visual flight. Its that simple. Full stop.'

 

Also, he said,

 

'The majority of Rec aircraft can be landed in small paddocks or on Rds if things get too bad- but watch for powerlines.'

 

This is a truism, HOWEVER under threat of weather it is almost ALWAYS UNTRUE. In most cases, you will be lucky if you live.

 

Imagine flying along, forced down to a couple of hundred feet, effectively lost in bad weather, and knowing if you don't get it on the ground in what may need to be seconds you will most likely die. This is the scenario that pilots face with scud running.

 

Your only option is to take what ever is in front of you right now. No time for precautionary search, the good paddock or the straight stretch of Rd. You will not even think of power lines.

 

This is the truth. So different from cheap hanger talk.

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

This is the truth. So different from cheap hanger talk.

ifr duck, no need to 'cheapen' your post ...I seem to recall though you previously wrote it was safer on top - incorrect I thought.

 

 

[vk3auu]

We keep hearing about navigating by visual reference to the ground. My impression is that these days, whatever they may claim to the contrary, most pilots navigate by visual reference to their GPS which I might suggest is much more accurate and often gives additional terrain information. (Flame suit on)

 

David

 

 

[Admin]

I personally NOT fly over cloud where I can not still see the ground in case of engine failure, navigation needs (be able to clearly see 3 points of reference) and be able to descend easily without having to worry about a steep dive to get through an opening.

 

I personally would prefer to fly under cloud at all times and maintain my minimum altitude, clearance to cloud and be far enough away from cloud to minimise the turbulence that it causes. If it got to a point where any one of these were compromised then i would simply turn around and go back.

 

So yes if going under cloud is what you call scud running then I would much prefer be a "scud runner" then to fly above cloud :big_grin:

 

 

[markendee]

What the devil has happened here to cause this much friction?

 

Have a read of the first post again. This is not Nuremberg stuff.

 

Time to calm down and take a good look look at oneself.

 

MND

 

 

[ifr duck]

I Come In Peace

 

High Plains Drifter.

 

I wondered why you wrote that at first but now I see!!

 

I wasn't in any way referring to your post or anyone else here. I was thinking of things I had heard said by people elsewhere I knew had no idea. So apologies to you or anyone else thinking that.

 

My last post was an attempt to clarify . For example, I am saying it is safer to fly over 8/8ths than scud run, not that it is a good idea or legal etc. etc. Both can get you killed. One will get you killed much quicker. Thats why every thing I said was prefaced by a reference to the safe and legal position.

 

I also need to clarify 'scud running'. This means flying along at a low level weaving and dodging around cloud in conditions not meeting the standard of the Visual Flight Rules. The reason pilots 'scud run' is usually because the cloud base is low, and when coupled with poor visibility results in the type of situation that started this thread.

 

vk3auu

 

There was a time when the army issued low level maps for navigation with even the powerlines marked on them. After losing several aircraft and helicopters they gave it away. You simply cannot react quickly enough at low level in poor conditions to avoid the unexpected. If you are below the highest terrain level the GPS will just paint red. Also, you quickly lose big picture situational awareness. At that point, and I have been their, all you can do is pull up and go fully onto instruments. It is not a good feeling.

 

Regards