Glider Flying

[nathan_c]

Just gonna throw this out there, as I would think gliding is recreational, but is anyone else a student glider pilot? I had my first lesson the other day and loved it, and would like to find others with the same interest :P

 

 

[Yenn]

I did a few flights years ago and the occasional flight since. I is great fun and a bit less costly, but for me it is about 40 mins each way to the nearest glider strip and that is by air. Gliding the way I did it was an all day affair, you spend most of the day getting others aloft and only get about 10 mins yourself. that was using a winch for launching the prototype Kookaburra. Unluckily for me I was ready to solo when it was damaged and I spent the rest of my time until i left the area helping get it back working.

 

I still hanker after a glider flight and once got an aero tow out of Narromine and doubled my time in 1 flight.

 

 

[slartibartfast]

I went solo for a while nearly 30 years ago and loved it. The biggest hassle was the all-day commitment. It was all aero-tow (the same Pawnee is still used by the club today), but you had to spend all day on the field. DI, tow the bus and gliders out, various jobs to help others get airborne, get in one or two flights yourself, tow gliders and bus back and tuck away. Then the drinking in the clubhouse afterwards.

 

Hang gliding was much better and individual, but nothing beats powered flying if you want to get somewhere (most times).

 

Gliding is extremely rewarding though, and it teaches you to fly right.

 

 

[Al B]

Personally, I think it'd be great to be a member of an RAA motorglider syndicate. It'd be fantastic to avoid the whole "have to spend all day at the airfield" thing and still go gliding. If it was RAA rego'd then we'd avoid all the GFA nonsense like compulsory club membership, having to have 200 gliding hours and a silver C, etc.

 

I really should find out who operates the RAA motorgliders at YCAB :)

 

Cheers,

 

Al

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Motorgliders are the way to go. I fly a Pipistrel Virus, they are a great all rounder. Good fun to glide in and with a cruise of ~120kts @ 12 lph good to go places in as well. Superb! :)

 

 

[nathan_c]

I think the club i use has a pawnee. I go through Warwick, so its like 2 hours drive each way from brisbane for me. The reason i go through there is cause the air force cadets do it there, so i get it a little cheaper then club rates.

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

I do not think that I am highjacking this thread off topic but it could be a good subject for discussion and to see other views on a number of facets.

 

 

Since I first became heavily involved with motor gliders in 1970 I personally considered that they would be the future of recreational flying.

 

 

Main points are independent operation, ability to be used as a powered aircraft cross country, facility of switching off the engine and enjoying low cost soaring for hours on end etc. In addition they do come in a variety of forms. From the humble Falkes with about 14:1 glide ratios to the super ships with 30 mtr plus wing spans and glide angles in the 60s and then a new generation of middle of the road aircraft.

 

 

A lot there for a variety of pockets from about half a $mill downwards to possibly $20k - and less for a single seater!

 

 

A good insight into the beasts was the Fournier RF5 tandem two seater. This was touted in Europe as a ‘motor glider’ but was not really (it could have been in Oz conditions but not in European thermals) yet was an excellent trainer and runabout. It had a single seat counterpart which was the RF4 (dubbed as the ‘poor man’s Spitfire) but this was not really a motor glider at all (Its longer wing span brother was however).

 

 

These things (via intelligent marketing) took UK by storm – at least in one place and that was Biggin Hill. An import facility/school started up and managed to worm their way into PPL training – at half the price of GA schools. Damn that was successful! It was really churning out keen pilots and selling single seaters to them.

 

 

The owner (a friend of mine) was killed in an RF5 at an air display and things went quiet. I suppose the UK equivalent of CASA found a way to reorganise the regulation (probably over the single ignition system engines) and it all fizzed out.

 

 

But the exercise showed the pent up desire for Rec Flying that RAAus is currently harvesting – 35 years later.

 

 

Motor gliders are now part of this but a few thoughts, that I would like other views on that are current perception (as I am a bit of a traditionalist – for survival reasons mainly).

 

 

When AUF/RAAus began bringing true motor gliders onto the register I had some disquiet. I contacted Paul Middleton and suggested that we needed a motor glider ‘endorsement’ (for want of a better word) but certainly more than the basic flying training syllabus supplied.

 

 

Concurrently with this GFA went up in arms, presumably concerned about ‘poaching members’ etc and I believe a back yard deal was done on the basis that if the machine could taxi normally and had a fixed position motor – then it could go into RAA. If it had a retracting motor then it could not and had to go into GFA.

 

 

At the same time the training alarm bells I had been ringing were quashed by an RAA mandaate that the things could not be operated engine off. Brilliant thinking! It not only neutralised the basic purpose of the machine but left the question begging of what do you do with an engine failure? That one was ignored.

 

 

The motor gliders (or SLGs if you like) have a couple of traps. If you are flying them engine off then your circuit procedure may be a bit radically different from what you are used to (or probably have been trained on and usually flown).

 

 

If your ‘run out of height in the circuit’ (a standard gliding recovery training exercise) then you can be faced with less than half the runway left that you were anticipating and dealing with an aircraft that has the capability of floating on ground effect for a kilometre before it decides it is ready to land. So your approach control sort of has to be up to it and needs to be so instinctively!

 

 

On the other hand approach control can be a hassle anyway! To tame these beasts and ‘dirty them up’ so you can get them down in limited areas, there are things termed spoilers and airbrakes. The hiccup here for a power orientated pilot is that you have to switch to ‘pure gliding’ close the throttle completely on approach and then use the approach control systems – which can be a bit devastating if powerful and misused at the same time.

 

 

This not a normal part of our basic training because there is no facility for doing it.

 

 

Anyway do not mind me. I am fascinated by how so much aviation lore can be ignored just by a change of name. I am equally fascinated by spending a lot of time this morning claiming my ‘new RAAus endorsements’ that I have held for decades – but motor gliders do not form part of these and yet are quite obviously part of our future.

 

 

What do other readers think?

 

 

Aye

 

 

Tony

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Hi Nathan,

 

Glad you loved gliding....it is the purest form of flying (as things currently stand)

 

Once you get solo and really gather a few hours mastering thermals close to stall, your stick and rudder skills will stand you in good stead in years to come, even if you eventually transition to noisy recreational aircraft.

 

Yes, gliding/soaring is certianly Recreational ,combining sensitivity and intelligence with flying skills.

 

Best of luck and I hope you experience the joys of soaring.

 

JL

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Hi Tony,

 

Endorse your comments on training (or lack of) to fly a motor glider.

 

I recall a flight review about three years ago by a reseller of a then recently released UL motor glider with air brakes....his comments as to the 'surprising' effects of deploying airbrakes on final suggested less than full glider pilot endorsments.

 

Things may have changed since then, but I too wonder what induction/training is offered to a powered aircraft pilot purchasing one of the new breed of motor gliders now available.

 

JL

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I recall a flight review about three years ago by a reseller of a then recently released UL motor glider with air brakes....his comments as to the 'surprising' effects of deploying airbrakes on final suggested less than full glider pilot endorsments.

This is a very good point. The Virus has brakes and they are very effective, extremely so on the shorter wing variants. I have had no glider training in the past and felt uncomfortable using them at first and was very reluctant to use them on final. The effects of them are quite pronounced so when you are close to the ground you can easily get yourself into trouble.

 

I took the aircraft out and did some upper airwork playing with the brakes to see the effects of them, the reaction of the aircraft, etc. quite a bit before I used them on approach. Furthermore I did a lot of flying with my brother in the aircraft who has experience both on type and in conventional gliders.

 

The approach I took to learning how to use these things is one that I am comfortable with. That said, it is not one that is generally available to a lot of people and I do wonder how people with no experience and no one else available to learn from cope with it.

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

Yeah JL.

 

 

I heard that Michael Coates and his crew do a good job with their sales package that includes induction to their motor gliders that they sell. That is good sense but one really has to look as far down-stream as possible with basic skills.

 

 

When these currently expensive machines have become old hat and cheapened off a bit they will be floating around on the second hand market and people are going to get their hands on them that have had no training, or maybe do not realise the need for extra training.

 

 

Intelligently handled with a bit of determination and our whole RAAus movement could benefit. If the need for running out of height exercises, paddock landings and approach control skills were recognised and provision made for them via an endorsement syllabus – then the embargo on ‘engine off’ flying could be lifted.

 

 

In addition most of the mid level breed have been certified for spinning. If we could get dispensation for spinning in them arguing (as JL points out) that most soaring is very near the stall in turbulent air, then that would give a facility for people to more readily have exposure to spinning if they wish, without actually mandating spin training.

 

 

A lot of motor gliders also carry systems that you do not get on conventional ultralights - variable pitch, flaps, etc so there is additional training value in them.

 

 

One could envisage a flying school being able to offer considerably more recreational dimensions to justify a high expense item. This is already happening.

 

 

A Super Dimona operates out of Caboolture and does a lot of TIFs for the public, flying training for the gliding club and also is used as a glider tug. So that machine has a broad market to draw from while returning a lot of pleasure to many.

 

 

But it does not have to be expensive if you buy from the European or USA second hand markets.

 

 

The sort of machine that would go really well are things like the Scheibe SF28 Tandem Falke. Most ultralight pilots would feel at home in one of these straight away. They can be operated quite normally as a powered aircraft but have a very good glide plus excellent soaring capability. I once outsoared a Blanik in one when I did a type appraisal flight at Augsberg in S. Germany.

 

 

The big bubble canopy affords great visibility and they have the standard Hoffman two position pitch prop plus full feather. They also have an efficient cowl flap that one does not want to forget as it is capable of cooking the engine in seconds under full power!

 

 

They are out of production now but, like the Thruster & Drifter, filled an aviation niche very well and have no need to evolve much. You could probably get into one for about $40 - $50K. That is a lot different to the megabuck Stemme S10, ASH25M & Calif A21J super ships!

 

 

Lot of ‘new’ dimensions are available to Rec Flying if people dig around in the past a bit. I was flying these things well over 30 years ago – how many readers have even heard of them?

 

 

But, while they are simple enough to fly and convert to – you really need some of the aspects of basic gliding systems control training to be fully safe with them and not bend them. Something I feel that RAAus should be taking a look at.

 

 

Aye

 

 

Tony

 

 

[kevinfrost]

I for one believe in the merit of gliding experience (pure gliding)before power training.It's fine to learn to glide and go solo and leave but go the extra mile get your silver 'c' fly a few hundred kmtrs and get back home, be prepared to put down anywhere. Go ridge soaring, Experience rotors (one side of it is good).One day after many hours gained and after a long flight I realized I had little recollection of the flight inputs and realised I had got to the stage of being a part of the a/c and was flying instinctively."I could fly". I have suggested to a couple of people to learn to fly gliders before power, they did and both their instructers were prepared to let them go solo after a hour or so.Whilst respecting the danger,they tend not to have engine out and weather phobias and tend to understand how to use the enertia of the a/c.Tail draggers tend to pose less problems for them as well.

 

All day at the airfield for a ten minute flight? I guess it depends on the time you can spare and how committed we are.

 

 

[Phildo]

I would love to soar ..... However gliding is time expensive and all day at the field is a bit much these busy days.

 

I can book a flight with the school, 7 days a week and fly for an hour or two and be home for lunch. Easy.

 

Gliding, turn up, sign the book. Wait, help out ect. ect for a few flights.

 

Its a shame because gliding is really what I am looking for - simple joys of flying.

 

Life is a comprimise. My 2c.

 

Phil.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

consider these 'ultralights'

 

mitchell B10

 

Mitchell U2

 

Lazair any model

 

Thermite series

 

Sapphire long wing

 

why wait all day when you can soar all day with one of these. you may have to work a little harder because they don't have the higher performance but that is part of the fun.

 

 

[Phildo]

Yes Ozz,

 

I once saw a sapphire thermal over mangalore once .... couldnt believe it!!

 

Pure gliding is what I am after - the hunt for the thermal appeals.

 

 

[skybum]

Gliding? Great fun! As I described gliding to my 20000hr jet chtr mate who had never even considered it as real flying. Gliding is like golf for pilots. :thumb_up:

 

 

[Al B]

What if the RAA managed gliders?

 

Hi All,

 

Let's suppose that for some reason, the RAA managed gliders instead of the GFA. Suppose there was no extra GFA fee, you wouldn't need to be a member of a gliding club, and you were actually considered a pilot once you finished your training (the GFA doesn't have a pilots license and seems to consider most people as either students requiring supervision, or instructors).

 

While you could join a dedicated gliding club and spend all day at the field, you wouldn't have to. You could buy a fairly cheap 2nd hand glider and get a mate to tow you up in a jabiru.

 

In this strange new world, would the ex-glider pilots here consider going gliding again?

 

Cheers,

 

Al

 

 

[Guest tomfum]

all day at the airfield? Nah, thats just what you tell your other half.

 

Real gliding is about flying all day and actually going somewhere (500km +). Not a 10 minute glide back to the ground. My last few flights have all been over 5 hours, some over 7 hours, and had good cross country distances. I'm not saying this to show off, it's just people seem to have a very different idea of what the sport is about.

 

I know when you first go to a gliding club it seems like all day at the airfield and then a short flight or two at the end, but thats really only during the pre-solo stage. Then it gets interesting. At the Grampians soaring club, during winter months we often fly in lee wave and get into Class A controlled airspace over 24,500 ft (yes it is legal) . Try doing that in a jabiru.

 

If only there was a career in gliding.

 

But power flying definately has its advantages, and thats why i'm on this site trying to find out about how to learn about the RAA. It could be the first step (of many) in a flying career. We'll see.

 

 

[newairly]

Winch launching is a tremendous buzz. One moment you are standing still and a couple of seconds later you are pointing at the sky and aiming at a convenient cloud. The climb angle and rate is staggering.

 

Of course there is always the possibility of a loud thump as the cable breaks and leaves you in an interesting attitude. That is what training is for!

 

If you get the chance do it.

 

Phil

 

 

[kevinfrost]

In another life, myself and a couple of mates picked up a glider which had been hanging up in a shed for around 15 years. We paid $300. for it. It was a cross between a Hutter 14 and a Grunau Baby (semi open cockpit). At the time I was a member of the Adelaide Uni Club which was winch. We used the Reflex launch system with this A/C. You lay out all the cable (nylon rope with steel trace both ends) in this case with a 302 Ford, drive back half the length of rope, on the signal the driver goes as fast as he can. The result! The closest thing to being shot out of a slingshot with no real control for the first second. One minute your looking at a cloud of dust disapearing in the distance followed by a bang and much blueness with the altimetre reading 450 ft. I kid you not, 1000ft in 15 seconds. Quite a few people would come and ask us to demo the launch, especially the old timers and we would oblige until the club said enough was enough. This launch was outlawed becuase of the fatality rate associated with it. Cleve Gandy, an old glider pilotflew this A/C before it was hang up in the shed. In his words. "The most frightening thing he had experiened" and that was behind an old Dodge fargo ute. Would I do it again? No, but when you're young all things are possible, it's how we got this far.

 

If any ex Adelaide uni members have any photos of Charlie Chickenhawk from back in the 80s give me a hoy, I've only got one of it flying. Or if anyone knows of its wherabouts (went to the SE of SA somewhere) let me know please.

 

Frosty.

 

 

[winsor68]

http://http://www.youtube.com/user/winsor68

 

Above is a link to some Super 8 movie footage my dad took during the late 60's and early 70's in North West Queensland. It features aerotowing with Mucha and Kookaburra sailplanes. You should be able to find your way to the other parts of this footage on Youtube easily...I had to break it into 4 parts due to length...Some of the footage shows I believe some reflex launching with a standard Libelle sailplane (this aircraft is still on the register- VH-GTX).

 

I have some even older footage of my Mum and Dad flying a Schneider Kangaroo...a truly rare aircraft...which I will add to Youtube soon...

 

You may even spot me in a few frames as a tiny baby...my brother and I grew up on airfields and I can certainly relate to the comments about gliding being time consuming...it was all we knew on weekends untill I was 16 years old lol.

 

Surely there is other footage floating around of gliding in Australia'a past...this country has a rich gliding heritage. I think it would only take Ra-aus and more sensible and cost effective aircraft for a major rebirth...I know if I had a choice I would be gliding. The plastic sailplanes that evolved from the sixties in my opinion were the end of affordable gliding in Australia...Wooden aircraft were easily maintained and repaired within the gliding clubs...once airframes became glass and even metal, any repairs or major work required a visit with the machine to facilities located many thousands of kms away and much higher costs.