Ethical Dilemma

[Guest Elk McPherson]

What would you do in this situation?

 

I was talking to another pilot over the weekend and the topic of the local RAAus operations was raised.

 

Although we are both Chief Pilot of our respective companies with about 18,000 hours between us we have both flown ultralights in the past.

 

There have been several instances when we have each observed highly questionable operations by the local RAAus school, yet when we have confronted the instructor or even the CFI we have been met with flat denial that these things ever occurred.

 

The thing we know best is that there is no point telling anyone - because dobbers wear nappies and we should mind our own business.

 

Isn't that right?

 

 

[ahlocks]

What would I do......

 

 

1. Assess my motive for taking any action. i.e. can I justify what I am about to do as being reasonable and not driven by an ulterior motive?

 

 

2. Consider how my intervention is likely to be received and what outcome is likely to be achieved.

 

 

3. Conduct an informal approach and offer assistance to correct problem.

 

 

If the issue is not resolved;

 

 

4. Present evidence, relevant legislation, code of practice, etc., to support my intervention at a formal meeting and document that meeting.

 

 

5. Start working up through the chain of command with above documentation and continue recording an audit trail until the issue is resolved.

 

 

Dobbers wear nappies? yeah sometimes.... and sometimes you've got to put the nappy on and dob if the issue is serious enough to warrant it.

 

 

My opinion - make absolutely sure that you can justify in good faith that the issue is not just a difference of opinion and warrants pursuing further and then see it through to the end. Definitely keep accurate records of who was informed about the issue but chose to do nothing about it.

 

Regards,

 

Steven B.

 

(I'm still left wondering why a CP doesn't know how to play these sort of games..)

 

 

 

[Admin]

Me, well what ahlocks says and in simple terms:

 

1. Speak to the person concerned in a nice way with the rule book and say for the betterment of our industry

 

2. If it still keeps happening then I feel you don't have any alternative but to report it to the RAAus Ops Mgr.

 

It is better to wear nappies then to hear about a funeral - in my opinion!

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I reckon it depends.. if its dangerous, then steps need to be taken. You sought of have a responsability to act. Your an experianced guy, you'd know whats dangerous and whats just rude..

 

Mascot, hmmmmm...don't know of many ultralight training facilities there..

 

What are these guys doing?? more info...

 

cheers

 

 

[ifr duck]

Howzat!!

 

Guys, I would up front go straight to the responsible person concerned and say ' I saw 'this and this' . You and I know its not on, so if I see it happening again I will send a report to the RAA Ops manager, with a copy of my complaint to you also. Nothing personal, but its unsafe and you should know better.'

 

What this approach does is helps you not to make frivolous complaints, and keeps things out in the open where they need to be. Saves possible embarrassment later and maybe you will be respected for it. I wouldn't make a complaint though unless it really did relate to something pretty important. A lot of issues relate to things other than safety or criminality (opinion, technique, commercial, etc etc) and I would leave those matters to take care of themselves. (even if they do really 'give me the s**ts!!)

 

fight clean!!

 

 

[Guest Elk McPherson]

IFR Duck

 

Ten out of Ten :thumb_up:

 

Ahlocks is (obliquely) correct, there is a long history.

 

The "perp" has been fronted (not by me) and denied it, his CFI also and ditto.

 

Low level (300') circuits at 7am over town (sparking complaints in surrounding suburbs) and night circuits in a [ultralight] for "a bit of a giggle" are, in my experience, not to be taken lightly or dismissed with "oh he knows what he's doing".

 

Joe Gostner once said to me (same topic, different bloke in question) "If he knew what he was doing, HE WOULDN'T BE DOING IT."

 

Comes back to what we were saying before in the "IDIOTS" thread about creating a safety culture and an EXPECTATION within the organisation that we all do the right thing.

 

Looks like the Nappy stays in the cupboard for a couple of weeks :pig:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Elk.. did you train with Joe??.. do you happen to know what he's up to now..ppl often come into the office (gostner) and ask where he is and whats he doing..would be nice if i could answer them..

 

300 ft cct's , hmmm.. night cct's in an ultralight... double hmmm.., this guy obviously isn't at yscn, we are the only RAA school there.. and i can tell tell ya none of our instructors ( or students hopefully) would even consider these moves..

 

Put the nappy on mate.. ring Mick and talk to him, perhaps he could give them a bit of a liven up with a phone call, un oficial like.. We know what you've been doing , we have eyes evrywhere type of thing...

 

cheers

 

 

[ahlocks]

Ahlocks is (obliquely) correct, there is a long history.

Well, you did ask what "I'd" do... :raise_eyebrow: and I definitely put a lot of consideration into point 1 and point 2 before opening my yap. Otherwise I'd get into more trouble than I already do. :black_eye:

 

But, when I'm right and the offender is wrong and want's to deny it, paperwork is my the weapon of choice. In my experience, the majority of issues are sorted at point 3 and by the time you get to point 4 the offender has figured out that you are not mucking around.

 

You intimated that nothing would be done if you chased the issue. Coroners, courts and litigators love a paper trail that records who did what or who didn't act on an issue and that tends to stir the bureaucracy along. ;)

 

Cheers!

 

Steven B.

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

Got a video camera?

 

Amazing how people change their tune when confronted with hard video evidence ;)

 

Scotty

 

 

[Phildo]

Years ago I had a CP flatly refused to note that the elevator had rivets missing in a drifter once....

 

I walked away. The next student took it up though, no prob.

 

Should I have pushed harder.... I dont know.

 

People always take it as a personal attack if you question their methods and practises.

 

Observe for a bit longer ... you may have spooked him.

 

Phil

 

Fly Safe.

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

That's where the professional bit come into it?

 

What would you do?

 

What would you do if one of your staff acted in an unprofessional manner flying?

 

Leave it go, and hope they reform themselves?

 

Putting it strictly professionally, I always consider the facts based on my professional ethics.

 

Whether that makes me a hard liner, then so be it.

 

I'm an Optometrist.

 

I regularly see people who come in for eye tests, who should not be driving.

 

Some are elderly, often live alone, and pretty much need the car for medical reasons, such as going to the GP, or just simply shopping.

 

Without the car, their lives would be very difficult.

 

Legally, when I come across such people and I cannot assist them to meet the driving criteria, like all optometrists, I am now legally obliged to report such people to Queensland Transport and, unless they can achieve enough vision to pass the test, have their licenses revoked.

 

Do I enjoy it? Hell no. It stinks. Makes me feel like a complete prick. Some of these people I've seen for years. Sometimes they ball their eyes out in front of you, or beg you to "forget it". Heart breaking.

 

Do I still do it? Of course I do.

 

Reasons?

 

To protect everyone else from them.

 

To protect them from themselves.

 

And, lets face it, to make sure I act in an appropriate professional manner.

 

Generally, reporting something serious to the authorities is very unpleasant.

 

But think of what can happen, if you don't?

 

Say, they have an engine out at aforementioned 300 feet, and crash into a house, killing someone?

 

Say, they can't get back safely in the dark, make an emergency landing, and hurt themselves?

 

What happens to our own credibility when the authorities come to ask "a few questions", and all we can say is that "Yeah, I saw that happen before, but didn't think it necessary to report it"?

 

One of the biggest things I see is that if people are left to "bend the rules", they are very much likely to continue doing so.

 

Even more disturbingly, is the number of people who don't even know they're doing something wrong.

 

They're not necessarily stupid. They may be plain ignorant of the rules. Or unaware of the consequences. Still happening though.

 

If you had any idea how many people I see, who don't wear glasses driving, and who don't pass the vision test for driving, BUT think their eyesight is perfectly fine, you'd be horrified.

 

It also amazes me how many of these people have a poor driving record. Surprise surprise, there. Yet noone stopped them before?

 

So who makes sure they toe the line? Themselves? Sometimes they do, for sure. Sometimes they know when driving is too hard, and hand it in themselves.

 

And sometimes they don't.

 

I hear a lot of talk on here about giving other pilots a "fair go".

 

Horse crap. Biggest load of bollocks I've ever heard.

 

If people still want to live in the dark ages of recreational flying, where a "she'll be right mate" attitude is acceptable, and everyone was buzzing around at 50 feet in paper mache aircraft after teaching themselves to fly, then they need to get another hobby.

 

I'd try lawn bowls. Less hard to injure yourselves, and others.

 

Yet this attitude still prevails amongst some pilots.

 

Pilots who seem to want all the benefits of being a "professional", yet feel the responsibility and professionalism that comes with it doesn't matter.

 

What's the difference between a recreational pilot and a GA pilot? Or a recreational pilot and a commercial pilot?

 

Skills, sure. Experience, absolutely. NOT professionalism. NOT ethics.

 

Or, at least, it shouldn't be.

 

I dare any recreational pilot to put THEIR name on the board, and tell us all they don't think this is the case.

 

Cause they sure seem to bitch and whine when someone takes their flying "freedoms" away from them, when something "unprofessional" happens.

 

Flying any sort of aircraft takes a level of competence and skill that's supposed to set us up to do what can be a dangerous activity in as safe and "professional" way we can.

 

Does flying "professionally" mean we have no fun? Course not. But we still need to obey the rules. Everything in life has rules we have to live with. That's what makes it so much fun.

 

Flying has rules to follow...generally very strict rules. It's highly regulated, and getting more every year.

 

Fact of life moment...get used to it! Don't have to like it. Just have to do it.

 

If a safety concern can be resolved all friendly and happily, over a carton of beer, a few friendly words, and anything in between, then all the better. Go for it. Do what you can.

 

But we all need to stop ignoring it if it continues.

 

I keep hearing this "Don't dob in a flying mate" horse crap, and it just makes me shake my head.

 

I'm not perfect. I never admit it. And if I screw up (which I do, have done, and will undoubtly continue to do on a regular basis), I'd expect another pilot to discuss it with me. In particular,so l have a chance to learn from my mistakes and grow from it, bettering myself, and becoming a more "professional" pilot.

 

I've never been afraid of learning something new. That's a part of flying, not to mention life in general.

 

We're supposed to be professionals.

 

Professionals act for the common good. Not to cover another individual's butt, because we don't want to rock the boat.

 

You don't have to always like it. You just have to do it.

 

Try it the easy way first, absolutely. Try talking to them off the record, and solve the problem.

 

But if that doesn't work, we need to stop acting like children, worried what our mates think about us for being a "dobber", and grow up! It's time to act with a bit of professionalism.

 

Scott

 

"With great power comes great responsibility"...Stan Lee.

 

Sure, I ain't no Spiderman....but the phrase still applies to all of us.

 

 

[slartibartfast]

I'm an Optometrist.I regularly see people

hehe.

 

Good post Scott.

 

My view? Deal with it personally, then locally, then nationally. It would be hard to live with an accident you saw coming but did nothing to prevent.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Do what you feel is morally responsible and don't 'crow' about it to all your mates.

 

the dept has gone to at lot of trouble to encourage people to act anonomously so they don't come across as dobbers ect.

 

some tho seem to get off on making a big news issue and enjoy a good crusifiction.

 

remember that you can only do so much then it is up to the RAAus and the Dept to sort out.

 

 

[Guest Elk McPherson]

I am fairly sure that the RAAus would require solid evidence before acting.

 

Like Ahlocks I have made many mistakes and done a few things in aeroplanes that are far removed from our idea of "professional". I have been dobbed in, put through the mill, and after a lot of soul-searching, rebuilt.

 

As far as the Law is concerned, I am a bit like a reformed smoker.

 

(Moderated: removal of some post content, Reason: outside the scope of the thread and listing blame against someone that can not be supported by fact and no right of reply by the person in question, By: Ian who's neck is on the line with this type of content)

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

PS: Merv, I had that conversation with Joe in Bathurst in 1999 or 2000. Someone has told me recently that he is back in the air but I can't remember where - maybe contracting to someone at Bankstown?

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

hehe.It would be hard to live with an accident you saw coming but did nothing to prevent.

I once acted on an issue, i was laughed at, shortly after 9 people died.

 

i can live with that. i wonder if the investigator who did the laughing can.

 

ozzie

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Some good advice here, in this thread...

 

It would appear the problems have been ongoing for some time, and not simply an isolated incident.

 

I would be approaching the RAA to give them the heads-up and give them the opportunity to sort things out ASAP - before the crash happens.

 

Ben

 

 

[Phildo]

It also amazes me how many of these people have a poor driving record

No ... No It doesnt supprise me at all. What really amazes me is that hardly anyone has a licence at all!! Seriously, few people drive with a full 'open' licence.

 

But anyways,

 

Its a tough call.

 

Phil

 

Fly safe.

 

 

[Guest Flyer40]

Well stated Rocko, I'd nominate this for "post of the year", if there was one. These expressions of intolerance for reckless behaviour are one of the most effective ways of saving lives.

 

They also contribute to preserving our freedoms. Regulators are inherently lazy and lethargic, they wont interfere unless compelled. It's the irresponsible antics of the cowboys among us that compel the regulators to reduce our freedoms.

 

Thanks for raising this question Elk, these discussions are truly progressive.

 

 

[Guest sypkens]

Well stated Rocko, I'd nominate this for "post of the year", if there was one.

I completely agree . On another note why not have "post of the year"? My price suggestions could be an hour flying on Ian's sim or maybe if Ian is inclined a flight in the MM??

 

 

[Phildo]

My price suggestions could be an hour flying on Ian's sim

After seening a photo Ian's sim, I reported his power outage of three monitors to the EPA for assessment re industrial emissons tax. :big_grin::big_grin:

 

Nice post Rocko.... well thought out and with plenty of foresight (Optometrist ... foresight .. get it .. huh huh!!)

 

Phil

 

Fly safe

 

 

[Bluehawktechnologies]

IFR DuckTen out of Ten :thumb_up:

 

Ahlocks is (obliquely) correct, there is a long history.

 

The "perp" has been fronted (not by me) and denied it, his CFI also and ditto.

 

Low level (300') circuits at 7am over town (sparking complaints in surrounding suburbs) and night circuits in a [ultralight] for "a bit of a giggle" are, in my experience, not to be taken lightly or dismissed with "oh he knows what he's doing".

 

Joe Gostner once said to me (same topic, different bloke in question) "If he knew what he was doing, HE WOULDN'T BE DOING IT."

 

Comes back to what we were saying before in the "IDIOTS" thread about creating a safety culture and an EXPECTATION within the organisation that we all do the right thing.

 

Looks like the Nappy stays in the cupboard for a couple of weeks :pig:

Are you speaking of Joe Gostner from Camden Airport?

 

 

[Guest Elk McPherson]

Joe Gostner

 

Yes Bluehawk I was quoting him. It was the only time I met Joe - I was on a charter and he was having a break with a student on a Nav, we were in the kitchen at Bathurst Aero Club. His simple statement made an impact that remains with me today.

 

No, in no way was I inferring that he would have any part in the sort of shenannigans being discussed here.

 

 

[Bluehawktechnologies]

Yes Bluehawk I was quoting him. It was the only time I met Joe - I was on a charter and he was having a break with a student on a Nav, we were in the kitchen at Bathurst Aero Club. His simple statement made an impact that remains with me today.No, in no way was I inferring that he would have any part in the sort of shenannigans being discussed here.

Sorry I should have expressed myself clearer

 

I meant to ask were you quoting Joe Gostner of Camden Airport.

 

I know Joe Gostner personally thats all although it has been a while.

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

Interesting how things pop up

 

Heres an interesting one

 

Happened Friday last week

 

I'm not going into anything specific, so theres no confidentiality issues, but it emphasises my points above nicely.

 

Client walk in as a new client, never having been to see us before. She has a feeling her reading vision is a bit difficult, but her distance seemed fine.

 

She doesn't wear specs driving, and never has

 

Last test was 5 years ago, and all was well.

 

Her vision wthout any correction was less than 6/60 in her good eye (That's legally blind) and 6/120 (twice as bad) in her other.

 

Even with the best vision I could manage with specs, she only achieved 6/30 (which is 1/2 the size of the huge letter E you see on those charts, and nowhere near able to pass a license)

 

The cause? Dense cataracts, that had slowly developed over the 5 years since her last check.

 

Thankfully, it will be easy to correct, with surgery. She was referred as an urgent case to a local eye specialist, and will get them fixed. Sure, it'll cost her a few grand, but at least she can keep her driving freedom once it settles.

 

Hopefully, she will be back driving in about 8 weeks.

 

She was horrified to hear how bad her eyes were.

 

Her comment was "I never realised it was that bad"

 

Even worse, her husband is medically unable to drive, and she does all the driving for the both of them.

 

Seriously scary.

 

But, thankfully, a happy ending is pending.