Collision Avoidance

[BigPete]

Ok - I know this has been discussed before - but I think its very important in the light of recent collisions or near misses both here and overseas.

 

Here are the three best ways to avoid a mid air collision. :thumb_up:

 

1. Have a good radio and use it correctly.

 

2. Have a good radio and use it correctly.

 

3. Have a good radio and use it correctly.

 

I believe its time to change the rules so that all aircraft must have and use a radio.

 

This is a cheap, effective option. Yes, I know some of you fly minimal aircraft or older aircraft or "grass roots" aircraft that dont have a power supply to power the radio. Find a way to do it.

 

"Sometimes we select the wrong frequency" - c:censored:p that's just poor airmanship - do it and double check it!

 

"But there's no one around here for miles" :confused: No - what about the guy who thinks the same thing and is about to land on top of you because neither of you bothered to have or use a radio. I've been local flying and seen no one in the air - given a 10 mile inbound call and had 4 local responces to me. BUT nobody broadcasted until I did???

 

We all know what it's like to be in a busy circuit with many other aircraft - Hopetoun Flyin was a perfect example of SAFE flying because we all used the radio. It was brilliant.

 

The Mark One Eyeball - Still the best way to "see and avoid" - yes I keep a good lookout for other aircraft. I also use my hearing to listen for them as well. That's two senses now looking for you. I might even say that once I've heard you I'm REALLY looking for you.

 

So - enough from me - I'm now putting on the flame suit :big_grin: ready for fiesty (but intelligent, PLEASE) replies.

 

regards

 

:big_grin::big_grin:

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Here are the three best ways to avoid a mid air collision. :thumb_up:1. Have a good radio and use it correctly.

 

2. Have a good radio and use it correctly.

 

3. Have a good radio and use it correctly.

 

I believe its time to change the rules so that all aircraft must have and use a radio.

Currently the rules do not require that everyone has a radio. I have one but while ever I don't know for sure that the other guy does I don't see that using it correctly is the best way to avoid a collision. I use it as a means to reduce the chance of a collision but until the rules change my opinion is that the old

 

Mark One Eyeball

is indeed

 

Still the best way to "see and avoid"

That said, I think using the radio, keeping a look out, sticking to the correct cruising altitudes, having my transponder set correctly, etc. is the best way to avoid a collision. Unfortunately there will always be some cowboy out there somewhere that isn't conforming to the rules of the air or good airmanship but using a combination of these will go a long way to avoiding that big bang at several thousand feet.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I'm a believer in that a radio should not necessarily be mandatory as even if it is fitted doesn't mean that it is working or is being operated correctly. I conduct all of my flying under the assumption that all aircraft out there DON'T have a radio. I've had too many surprises to assume otherwise.

 

 

[Guest Baphomet]

Well, it should be on the list, but maybe not even in the top 3

 

1. Lookout

 

2. Lookout

 

3. Fly the nominated profile for any given airfield i.e. enter/depart cct in the correct manner, let down on the correct side at the correct height, fly the correct cct direction - all basic airmanship

 

4. By all means use the radio if you have one/its required

 

Problems with radio even when its working and on the correct frequency

 

1. Airwave 'clutter' particularly at busy strips

 

2. inacurate positioning info given that can lead to mis-identification. The number of pilots who don't appear to have a handle on assessing distance from altitude is remarkable.

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Sorry but as I've said before Radios don't make it safe. Have a look at incidents as GAAP airports they all require radio's and people still land on top of each other, go head to head and have no general idea where anyone else is. They are an Aid and often far to relied apon.

 

Two days ago I overtook and aircraft south bound from Newcastle heading for Sydney eventually got onto him and he said yeah I heard you... well thanks because we where the same level and i'm now 1/2 a mile in your 3 o'clock and I didn't know you where there! Radio's didn't help me but a lookout did!

 

What would help collision avoidance is teaching and helping students with situational awareness!! Its not that hard to have a peice of paper and write down call signs that could be a conflict or have a general idea where aircraft generally come from or are going to.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea, id hafta agree.. Radio's are a good aid, but nothing beats the optic nerve.. Sometimes i think the radio can be a hinderance to students.. especially in a busy cct envirnoment, there's so many calls going on they can easily get distracted, and also i think we put to much stock in what we are hearing is correct.. Ive lost count of how many times ive heard guys calling base when they are on final or something similar.. Sure its great to know where to look, but what i have found is that guys tend to only look for the acft they just heard, so there so focussed on one area of sky that a squadron of B52's could very well sneak up on you and you won't see them because your scanning that one spot..

 

But the worst thing i think is the false sence of security that radio's can provide, when in a cct or approaching an AD if you don't hear anyone, you tend to assume there's no-one about.. Even airliners get freq's wrong from time to time (trust me)..

 

The training area at camden is a very busy place sometimes, its used by bankstown and hoxton park.. On some days i loose count of acft in the sky, and they are ALL doing random manouvers.. There's no radio use there other then monitoring syd rad, see and avoid is all we have, and it works well, but there's deffinatly more incidents and accidents in cct areas australia wide where radio's are the go..

 

CCt procedures are the best thing i think, if followed by evryone, then radio's aren't needed..

 

cheers

 

 

[Ewen McPhee]

Radios in the circuit

 

I have noted, not infrequently, that calls from rec aircraft in the circuit are over ridden by GA aircraft who subsequently call a long final. Twice Yesterday people in the circuit extended their downwind components to allow GA aircraft straight in. (admittedly one commercial twin had just made a departure call and was suddenly calling a long final - he had not declared an emergency but came back in quick smart). On discussion later we decided that we were being polite in allowing the faster and bigger a/c first place. But, the concern is whether by doing that you give the GA people the impression that all REC a/c will do the same. What is good airmanship in the circuit. Should we stick to the rules and tell the big guys to join the queue. What do you think?

 

Flying as Copilot to my son was interesting last weekend when we hired a Warrior from Archerfield to try out the GAAP Procedures. We noted a Tecnam at the same altitude turning towards us over the Gold Coast and then a Tiger Moth flying in the opposite direction about 1000 feet abeam us on the way back to Archerfield. With so many a/c up there and so many calls it seems very easy to loose track of people. Luckily our eyeballs were working (and I am sure the other pilots had us nailed already)

 

 

[Mazda]

Having and using radio correctly is a real help. However (and unfortunately) we can't rely on it. How do you even know if your radio is working unless a controller, aircraft or AFRU replies?

 

People do make mistakes - all of us. We could be on the wrong frequency, have the wrong radio selected, have the volume down, or have a faulty radio. Yes, I know, "correct" use of radio and these things are not correct, but everyone has done it, even multicrew airline pilots. And if you don't do it, maybe that other aircraft doing circuits at the airfield has made a mistake.

 

It doesn't matter how mandatory we make it, how many radios we mandate to be carried, or how many radio calls are mandated in the circuit. People will still make mistakes.

 

So my suggestion is to use your radio well, listen out for other calls, but most importantly look out for those who you may not have heard.

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Couple of quick points (as I don the Nomex...)

 

AC in the circuit have the right of way over any AC making a straight in approach.

 

Now for the flames... I'm with Bigpete, but I believe every CTAF should be a CTAF® and that the use of radio by all AC should be mandatory.

 

While I appreciate that Tiger Moths, such as those at Shepp do not have radios fitted as original equipment, this is the 21st century, and there is no excuse to adapt a portable to the pilots headset.

 

No radio; no fly.

 

Ben

 

 

[Mazda]

Yes, don the suit. There is absolutely no point mandating radio. Why not mandate that no one ever crashes? Yes, that would work about as well.

 

Radios will always be on wrong frequencies, be on the wrong radio, will fail. What happens if radio is "mandatory" and your radio fails. Where can you then land? In a paddock? Or how can you take off if you need to fly to a maintenance facility?

 

Everyone would just assume everyone else has radio, and they'd assume if no one called that there was no one there.

 

Make them all plain ordinary CTAFs I say, it might make people look out better.

 

 

[Mazda]

Why is it in Australia that we can't use airmanship and instead have to mandate everything by law? Why not just encourage people to fit and use radios? If it is not mandatory, we are still allowed to do it!!

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yep, im with Mazda.. Ive never flown an acft without one, but mandating isn't the way to go. Like she said, you can't garentee anything. Thats another reason im against this ADSB gizmo.. Eyes out of the cockpit and looking looking looking is the go i reckon..

 

 

[Bernie]

Hey Pete. I have a scanner on 24/7 and I've heard many a heavy inbound to Hervey bay doing radio calls but still on Brisbane atc.

 

Also many years ago a Kingair flown by you know who, done a straight in aproach to Ymyb while I was on down wind for 17, lucky for me I did see him he was still on Ybud so even the Pro's get it wrong some times. Ymyb is a ctaf R.

 

A radio wont always stop accidents.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

I'm all for a bit of balance here...and not for mandatory anything really.

 

The point has been made in these posts that if you mandate radio and it doesn't work/is on the wrong frequency/isn't used/....then we have a problem. The view is put that having mandatory radio makes people assume that if they don't hear anyone then there's nobody there. That's a fair enpugh concern.

 

I want pilots to be aware of the other potential failure. In just the same way as we shouldn't assume there's nobody there if we don't hear them on the radio, we also shouldn't assume they are not there because we can't see them!

 

There is clear evidence that we really are not very good at "see and avoid". That's not through lack of trying, rather it's simply that the task is in many respects beyond us.

 

Yes we do see many aircraft, yes we do avoid many aircraft. In this we are helped by things like a standard sort of circuit - people are in known spots. However we also fail.

 

ATSB makes it clear that un-aided see-and-avoid is flawed at best.

 

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/1991/limit_see_avoid.aspx

 

So in just the same way that radio is flawed, so is see and avoid. I see them as being like slices in Reason's Swiss cheese. The more slices we have then the less likely that we are to have the holes in the slices line up.

 

For me it's see-and-avoid, flashing lights, bells, whistles, klaxons, radios, xpndrs, ADSB...whatever will give me a further assistance to avoid hitting somebody else or having them hit me.

 

And together with all that a continuing case of chronic unease - never believe that you are OK.

 

Regards

 

Mike