any 230 experience to share?

[Guest imflyer2]

My Buddy, who's Quadriplegic , and I have been modifying and flying a 1946 ercoupe. He soloed a few weeks ago. Now he bought a new 230 and we will begin the process all over again. Not many experienced jabiru people here in north bay area of california so consider myself lucky to have stumbled on this site. Seems there are some folks with building and maintaining as well as flying jabirus.

 

Would be greatful to those willing to share some comments on performance , quality , problems and flying techniques .

 

I had a ten year lay off from flying , so just getting warmed up again .

 

thanks for your input,

 

Jess

 

 

[glenns]

Welcome Jess,

 

I fly a J230C which I find to be a great aircraft. The extra power and extended wings certainly make for a great touring aircraft. Mine is also set up for glider towing although it has only ever done some testing this was very successful.

 

Glenn

 

 

[mlpinaus]

Okay, I'll step in too.. I bought my j230c from the factory with the electronic dash..dynon ems, efis, Avmap EKPIV gps. In Australia the j230c is registered under the local interpretation of the Light Sport Aircraft rules.. 2 people , 600 Kg MTOW. It is registered RA aus, with a calibrated transponder and two radios and the Dynon? pitot tube. It cost me AU$ 112K plus some change. I flew it back early August 2007 from Bundaberg. It has around 75 hours up, including two trips back to Narromine ( 500 nautical miles each way). The aircraft lives in a hangar at Murray Bridge

 

I am a low hours pilot and about 6 ft 5 ins tall. It is hard to get into, but comfortable enough once there. The real limitation is your need for a pee... The aircraft is like the Curates egg.. good in places.. It flies nicely and quickly.. an easy 120 Knots at 22-23 liters per hour. So far no problems with temperatures.. I have had the oil cooler ducting modfied as per the factory mods, but it was cool before. You do hear stories though..My gripes are with the detail finish..nasty door closures, crap door pockets that pull off, rubber cement all over, missing Zuzz fasteners, spat screws falling off all over town because of no use of locktite at fitting, loose lock nuts on the throttes.. The EKP also lost its data base one fine day, but that is not down to Jabiru.. if it were a BMW for the same money I would be deeply upset with all of this.. But my mate, who has 3000 plus hours in many kinds of aircraft including general aviation types says it is a beautiful, quick aeroplane...and it flies beautifully too, so shut up.....

 

Marcus

 

 

[BigPete]

Marcus - I feel your pain. i_dunno My J160c is not perfect. :yuk: It has character. :thumb_up: Most hand made objects do. I might even say - it's a work of art, unique and almost one of a kind (a collectors item) crafted by humans and not some cold robotic (but very accurate) machine.

 

sorry to steal the thread.

 

regards

 

:big_grin::big_grin:

 

 

[quentas]

If the 230 were built by cessna/cirrus, it would probably be far better in the finer details but also much more expensive Im sure. Value for money, they are exceptional, fly great and economically. If you leave it out in the rain, invest in a cover as they do collect water (you can drill holes underside to let it out) and keep a jump start kit close by for cold days on the first start. I love the fact that Im getting along at 120 knots on 22 lph. Good boot space too for fold up bike and tent etc. Another tip is use a make up mirror to check fuel level when refuelling, you dont need a ladder then. It wont be long before kids look at a 230 and say `Dad, look at the cessna`. they are multiplying at a very fast rate.

 

 

[mlpinaus]

Peter,

 

my wife argues that her Alfa 166 has character too. She speaks to it with evocotive

 

hand gestures and a fake Italian accent.

 

Would a Queensland one help for the 230 ?:big_grin:

 

Marcus

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

As the other parallel thread suggests... A QLD climate would sure help in the morning...

 

I agree with the finish. I cant help but think that just a few more dollars spent in the overall internal finish and the seat quality would be a good thing.

 

Its almost as though the "Its made in Australia" comment somehow provides an acceptable excuse for the agricultural internal finish.

 

The fact that there are other competing foreign solutions in the same space (for quite a few more dollars, but I suspect thats more to do with middlemen and transportation/insurance costs) that have managed to provide an appropriate internal finish shows that it can be done.

 

Andy

 

 

[mlpinaus]

yes, what is missing is attention to detail. I wrote Jabiru a letter about the rubbish

 

quality of their wiring, something I am more than qualified to talk about. Mentioned the other things, and suggested that a senior quality manager should be appointed who can simply veto the delivery of an aircraft until it qualifies to a certain minimum standard...yeah, .. right. With a 40 ft x 12 ft wall full of orders and my bank cheque in the piggy bank, what do I know?

 

Marcus

 

 

[Guest ROM]

Factory built Jabiru J230C equipped for glider towing.

 

Now regularly towing gliders with a MTOW of 580 Kgs [ 600 kgs is the allowable MTOW of any glider to be towed by a J230. ]

 

Tow times are around a total 9 to 11 minutes from start of T/O roll to 2000 feet glider release height and back to finish of landing roll when towing the two seater gliders.

 

Single seat, low MTOW glider tow turn around times are obviously a lot quicker.

 

We had problems with a poor prop design for glider towing and some engine problems.

 

Both have been rectified by Jabiru which cost Jabiru a couple of new, better designed tow props plus some work on the engine.

 

Cruise with the fine pitch tow prop is around the 108 -110 Kts.

 

[ Our local kit built J230 with a glider type finish and sealing and a glider type profiling of the wing will run well over 135 kts and close to 140 kt when at full throttle. It also accelerates and gets off the ground very quickly. ]

 

Our climb rate, full tanks [ 140 ltrs ] plus two up is around the 1150 FPM and getting better as the reworked engine slowly loosens up.

 

Fuel consumption around the 22 to 25 ltrs / hr and on up when towing at full throttle.

 

As pointed out above for other J230's, the detail finish on our J230 is lousy.

 

The Jabiru airframe is tough, durable and simple to work on and simple to repair although we haven't had any need for repairs on either the J230 or the J120 as yet.

 

The engine also is very simple and easy to maintain.

 

Normal max load in the back compartment behind the two seats is 160 kgs.

 

Good docile stall characteristics.

 

Easy to fly and if some padding or sheep skin seat covers are installed, the effects of the rock hard seats would be reduced and comfort is not too bad.

 

Noise and vibration levels could be a little better and some vibration can often be traced back to the Jabiru props which have had some quality control problems.

 

Sensenich props through Jabiru, are now being fitted and are a very good option judging by reports.

 

Not an aircraft for rough unmade fields or paddocks but the J230 certainly does not need sealed runways to operate off of, just a reasonably smooth 400 hundred metres or so. And a good deal less distance when you are familiar with the aircraft.

 

Depending on your needs and despite the lack of a really good quality finish, for room, load carrying capacity, range, speed, simplicity and low maintenance requirements and low long term running costs, the J230 is pretty hard to beat in value for money in that class of Light Sport Aircraft.

 

 

[quentas]

I forgot to mention heavy rubber floor mats stop the `drum` effect on the floor and make things more quiet.

 

 

[Guest imflyer2]

this is great!

 

Great to hear from all of you. We really appreciate listening to all the experience ,tips and humor.

 

yeah we think we made the right choice, now just have to learn to fly it. I flew it for the first time the other day,did a couple T&G's and found myself flairing a bit high and bouncing a bit. The engine also quit on touch down twice. Anyone had this happen? Maybe just a new engine?

 

Seems It took a lot of rudder climbing and considerable effort on the leg. My friend will be trying to match that pressure with a weak arm so I asked the factory if we could reducethe return spring pressure . I got the nod so I reduced the tension a bit. It definitely takes much less effort and still seems to return properly.

 

Will be flying it again sat so we'll see

 

The rep we bought it from says he makes his normal approach with 20 d. flaps,85 k.

 

and keeps it at 1300 rpms until he flairs. Wonder if anyone has a different approach they would like to comment on.

 

Jess

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I'm thinking the throttle stop (idle adjustment) may need to be increased slightly so the engine doesn't stop when you touch down. If the rudder is a persistent problem requiring right input it can be adjusted slightly at the rear. 85 knots seems VERY fast for the approach. 80 knots is the flap extension maximum speed! I am for closer to 70 knots or less in my short wing and I'm thinking a fraction less in the 230 with the longer wing. A J170 with the same wing can approach comfortably at 55 knots, so there should be a happy medium there for you that will minimise your floating.

 

 

[glenns]

I agree at that sort of speed I would never get on the ground. I approach at 65kt and need to be under 55kt to touch down nicely.

 

 

[blueline]

I agree with Brentc - 85 knots is very very fast in a 230!

 

I use 65 knots and full flaps but can do 55 knots for a STOL landing. This is as per the AFM.

 

 

[Guest ROM]

At 85 knots your agent must be doing low earth orbits trying to get that J230 on the ground!

 

And as above, he is exceeding flap speed limits.

 

I agree with the other guys above, 65 knots approach speeds and if conditions are OK and you know your aircraft even lower than that.

 

General rule for LSA type aircraft is that about 1.33 times the stall speed is the minimum approach speed.

 

Idle engine RPM for approaches but it does sound like an adjustment may be needed to the idle jet and possibly the idle speed stop as well.

 

We have had a similar short term engine stopping on approach problem with our original little 55 Jab but this was sorted out by the adjustments as above.

 

Engines stopping on approach does sort of get your undivided attention fairly quickly!

 

 

[Guest imflyer2]

OK that sound sounds more reasonable to me. I'll start with 70 k. and go from there.

 

Thanks everyone for their input. We're a little apprehensive about some of the info we're getting here. We bought the first plane our dealer has sold so all his experience has been selling firewall forword .Like I said, there is not much real life experience with jabirus here so this is greatly appreciated.

 

I'll talk to our local AP about the idle adjustment.

 

thanks again,

 

Jess

 

 

[Modest Pilot]

Details that make them fly nice!

 

#The rudder does not like to centre after a disturbance with the nose spat on. Make sure that the rudder springs are only just tensioned and it will be almost O K.

 

#Pull the rubber caps back off the ends of the telflex cables and spray with Teflon spray (the stuff that comes in green pressure packs from Repco for use on garage door slides) Use it on anyting that moves in the control system, you wouldn't believe how smooth the controls can actually be.

 

#On long flights take a pillow or something. No one can pee uphill!

 

#Cut a moon shape out of the front bottom part of the nose spat if you intend doing any off pavement stuff. The kneeling action of the front suspension tends to catch and tear the thing apart on any rough spots.

 

#Make sure the wings are level if you stop on the ground with any sort of fuel load. (yes I know the nylon ball in the fuel vent is spost to stop this but sometimes it doesn't I know of a guy that lost 60 lt overnight)

 

Enjoy it's a great x-country machine

 

 

[Guest imflyer2]

dead stick

 

I checked with the dealer and was told it should idle at 850 RPMs. After all temps were in the green it was in fact idling 830-860 but out of ten T&Gs 7 were dead stick with it dying at or before flair. This is definitely getting my attention.!

 

What is a proper idle speed? Could there be something else involved?

 

65 K approach was much better ....thanks.

 

The rudder is a bit easier with the lighter springs . I can see this plane is going to take some tweaking as we learn it's personality.

 

Thanks to everyone for helping out. I'll keep tuned in to listen to all the sound experience out there.

 

Jess

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Which throttle are you flying with versus testing with on the ground? It is possible that one throttle is bringing you back to idle and the one on the other side is capable of shutting down the engine - this has happened on my Jab on occasion. Also, do you have a gorilla grip? If you pull really hard on the throttle versus gently you may find that it will stop the engine. We had a student doing this at Tooradin - he was pulling so hard on final that the engine was stopping however on the ground we had to pull as hard as we could to make the same thing happen.

 

 

[Guest imflyer2]

My friend who is disabled will be flying from the left so I'm learning on the right. I had a CFI with me yesterday flying from the left and It died on him once out of three times. Both throttles seem a little stiff but I think I'm being pretty gentle with it.

 

I did check Idle with the left side however so I 'll compare the two today.

 

You mention that you had this happen occasionally....is it cured now or is it still an occasional problem?

 

thanks,

 

Jess

 

 

[Guest TFC]

Hi Jess,

 

I was wondering what modifications you are doing to the aircraft to get your friend to fly. I'm a quad also and am in the process of working out the hand control adaptations before I buy a J230. I currently fly a trike but, I now need a heater as I'm sick of freezing in the open cockpit. Its a great summer machine though.

 

 

[Guest imflyer2]

mods for diasabled

 

TFC,

 

We just got the 230 and have done very little at this point. I'm modifying the pilot seat so it reclines which is necessary for my friend. We've added extensions to avionics knobs as needed., installed a tri-pin grip on the stick, moved the PTT to the door so he can operate it with his elbow. A few other items.

 

The main item is to couple the rudders to the stick of course and we have been communicating with Jabiru on this and have some design suggestions . If you would like to leave me a contact address or # I will have my friend contact you which will make this conversation much easier.

 

His needs may be different than yours.

 

He Has soloed in an Ercoupe and is very close to his check ride. The jab will have some interesting challenges but we are having fun and enjoying the challenges.

 

Good luck with your flying.

 

Jess