Some sad news - prices

[Admin]

Some time ago I was given the prices of the new Millennium Master for both the kit and the factory built versions and I wasn't happy so I have gone back to them to see what we can do. Unfortunately it hasn't helped.

 

It is with regret that I have to announce that these are the prices for the aircraft:

 

- The Millennium Master Kit

 

The kit is composed by the totally built and glued aircraft but with the mechanical parts to be assembled: ailerons, controls, cloche, landing gears, engine mounting, hinges, canopy, etc. The kit contains all these parts except for engine, propeller, parachute, instrumentations, electric system. The does not include an optional parachute but has its installation (belts, doors, etc.) pre-installed.

 

Price: 60,000 Euro + shipping to Aust + my margin $5,000 AUD + gst

 

- The Millennium Master Fully Factory Built

 

This obviously depends on the final configuration: engine, propeller, flight instruments, parachute, painting, et

 

Approx Price: 120,000 Euro + shipping to Aust + my margin $5,000 AUD + gst

 

I am telling you as it is and I don't know what to think - I am being up front and I would be very much like to hear your comments about its viability in Australia.

 

 

[philipnz]

Yikes!

 

I don't know about Aussie but that would make it around $300k in NZ. Touching Furio territory (albeit that the furio isn't an LSA)

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Approx Price: 120,000 Euro + shipping to Aust + my margin $5,000 AUD + gst

That comes in at just under $220k with €5k shipping and your margin! In the words of Darryl Kerrigan - "Tell him he's dreamin'."

 

 

[Deskpilot]

60K Euros = AUS$102,792 and 120K Euros = $205,512. You pays for what you want.

 

Hey Ho, back to basics. Fly Ultralight On second thoughts, please don't

 

 

[Vision325]

Millenium Price

 

Wow! scary figures,

 

Wouldn't it be easier to design our own.

 

Now that would be an interesting project.

 

With all the Know how participating in this forum it could be possible.

 

Steve

 

 

[Admin]

Wow! scary figures,Wouldn't it be easier to design our own.

 

Now that would be an interesting project.

 

With all the Know how participating in this forum it could be possible.

 

Steve

- Steve, that is how the Master came about. There was a thread about 1.5 years ago where the ultimate aircraft was being designed by comments from forum members. I got an idea about building one that we could call our own but it was in the to hard basket so I went out and found the Master.

Perhaps we should revisit building our own aircraft and call it the "Recreational Flyer" :big_grin:

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Perhaps there might be better value in approaching aircraft importers directly and obtaining discounts directly through them for forum members? But, that being said I feel there would be no chance in the world of getting a cent out of Jabiru(for example), but miracles can happen!

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Dont foreget to add 15 - 20K for the ADSB

 

Perhaps we should revisit building our own aircraft and call it the "Recreational Flyer"

I hear TOSOG has an aircraft manufacturing project for sale ;)

 

 

[Flyer]

Sorry Ian, I'd build a fully kitted Vans RV10 before I shelled out that sort of money for a 2 seater.

 

I've done some sums on the RV10 and fully loaded it'd cost about $160k....170knot 4 place x-country tourer...

 

no deal.....

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

RV10, nice ... some of the RV owners are a bit suss, but nice aircraft

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Sorry Ian, I'd build a fully kitted Vans RV10 before I shelled out that sort of money for a 2 seater.

That was the first thing that entered my head too. Quickly followed by a second hand Cirrus. They can be had for around this money with 500 - 1000 hours on the clock. There are even some low hour ones floating about if you look hard enough - http://www.controller.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1140242

 

 

[Ben Longden]

YIKES!

 

I think that straight away, the boys are pricing themselves out of the marketplace.

 

Looks like the PA-28 will have to be the ship of choice around here...

 

Ben

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

that reminds me, i havn't checked my powerball from thursday yet,

 

 

[facthunter]

Alternative.

 

At risk of being a heretic, that is why I bought the Citabria. I could not find comparable value in what was offering under 544 Kgs.(The option then existing) I reckon the 600kg (LSA) at the moment is not attractive, and at this point in time with the 760 kg limit looking like a possibility, quite a few LOW COST alternatives should be available. The Citabria cost in the mid-50k's.

 

If anybody is interested, perhaps we could open up a thread to discuss types that might be available to us, (To build or existing). I have heard comments along the lines of "we don't want to be overwhelmed with cessna 150's" etc.". Surely we can be a little more positive than that. After all we look like being somewhat overwhelmed by Jabiru's and that is not the end of the world. (maybe). See if we can get some positive contributions.

 

I actually think we might be ahead of the world on this one. Nev..

 

 

[djpacro]

"sad news"? No surprises for me. They didn't appear to stint on engineering and other non-recurring costs. Doesn't seem to have been designed with low manufacturing costs high on the list of priorities. Not a cheap part of the world for labour.

 

At risk of being a heretic, that is why I bought the Citabria.

I agree, the 7ECA will be a useful aeroplane when the new rules come in. Still available new.

[Captain]

Ian

 

 

 

Those prices are around what is being asked for a top class german sailplane and are therefore not totally unexpected for top quality production in carbon fibre, but it will need to be of sailplane quality to be remotely justifiable.

 

 

 

In an ASG29 or my ASW28 you also get world's best performance and glide ratio etc in a beautifully & faultlessly made machine. An ASG29 factory demonstrator sold in recent weeks in OZ for ?? (bugger ... can't find it at the moment).

 

 

 

That pricing will certainly limit the market here, but if 175 knots is really achievable with the other performance figures previously given then there might be a couple of blokes who might want such a machine ............. but geeez that is stretching the friendship at this "affordable" end of the aviation market when a new RV7 or 8 would be so much less, even with a new engine.

 

 

 

Hope this helps, but is no more than you already know, I am sure.

 

 

 

Geoff

 

 

[wanabigaplane]

agahst

 

Not an unexpected price for what goes into it I suppose. I'll certainly be looking in another direction now.

 

Jack.

 

 

[Guest J430]

I've done some sums on the RV10 and fully loaded it'd cost about $160k....170knot 4 place x-country tourer...

Flyer

 

mate I have some bad news for YOU!

 

Having secured the vast majority of our RV10, engine prop and avionics at around AUD$1.00 = USD$0.972 I would like to inform you that $160K is a looooooong way from the mark.

 

You would need to add another $50K to that and on todays exchange rate add another $70k to that.

 

You may want to debate it, but by the time you ship it here, pay GST, buy all the bits, get some pro help to build it properly and kit it out with some IFR gear that is what it will take.

 

Now you could build a very basic VFR machine, and find a second hand engine and prop and not count any incidentals and save about that ammount.

 

There are some RV-10's in Australia that have cost $250-320K (mostly old exchange rates) but I think you will get the idea.

 

We have this project pretty well nailed to the dollar and a lot of educational input from some repeat offender RV builders brought us to the conclussion above!

 

Cheers!

 

J

 

PS Look at the price of a Technam, not cheap but hey, this is not rag and tube aviation. The Jabiru J120 is about the cheapest and best bang for uck in the world, and it will be about $60K by the time you are really done.

 

 

[phvdw]

I believe that's a fair price for such plane, was yesterday in Blois France over 800 ul-planes and a lot of importers/manufactures, the new fascination 100 carbon was on display, price +100000 euro.

 

Alternative for the millenium can be the SHARK, a look alike

 

http://www.shark.aero (price a bit cheaper, no first flight till now)

 

 

[Admin]

Nice looking interior however the panel space looks a bit limited - can't have an Avmap radio and transponder together and no room for anything else.

 

Like the Master it is definitely in the new breed of high priced low weight single engine, 2 seat aircraft coming out.

 

What are the possibilities of designing an ultimate Recreational Flying aircraft, get financial backing, build it and call it our own - could be an alternative to the Jabiru if we can get the design and pricing right - perhaps a low wing in-line 2 seater that goes 140 knots and costs $85k PLUS it even looks spectacular :big_grin:

 

A new forum has been created called The Ultimate Aussie Aircraft Project to follow on about designing an ultimate Australian aircraft

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Unfortunately the Shark has done very little for a few years and is a long way off production at this stage. Every second imported has had a look at it and decided it's just not there yet.

 

 

[Guest ROM]

Well it looks like the UL /LSA movement is going through the usual growing up pains that any technologically based industry seems to have to go through to sort out the survivors.

 

The automotive and aviation industries following both the first and second world wars saw an extraordinary number of new designs and wannabee major corporations.

 

The consumer Electronics and Internet in the 1980's and 1990's also followed the same pattern with dozens of new companies and new designs coming onto the market for a short while.

 

All of these periods were quickly followed by the demise or consolidation of a whole host of small wannabee companies into a few large and then ultimately only a handful of major global players.

 

In personal aviation over the last 50 years think Cessna and Piper.

 

In the Internet, which is still sorting itself out, think Microsoft, Apple, Google and etc.

 

In the automotive industry think GM and Ford with Toyota the upstart that has muscled in.

 

An industry following it's consolidation phase into a few major players becomes conservative, staid and starts to look at the bottom line more than it's need to keep on innovating.

 

An industry dominated by a few huge, slow reacting corporations also develops a hubris that says that what it has is the best and believes that there is no need to drastically innovate to hold it's position in the market.

 

Then along comes a period of revolutionary change and the big dominant corporations very rarely have either the psychology in their top ranks or the products to be prepared for the revolution.

 

Often such a revolution is a direct response to the conservative boringness of the dominant corporations.

 

In aviation it was the rise of the Ultralight movement and then the formalization of this movement in the LSA criteria which has provided a set of legal and customer required characteristics that wannabee aircraft designers and manufacturers can work to with the knowledge that there designs will be accepted word wide if they meet the criteria.

 

This relatively rapid development has caught the big personal aircraft aviation manufacturing corporations totally flat footed.

 

They are now frantically trying to get in on the act but they now have to contend with a whole host of new comers and some very innovative technologically advanced designs that they, the corporations in their ponderous fashion, have no hope of matching in the near future.

 

Unfortunately in a period of rapid change and the rise of new players in a changing industry, the best designs rarely come out on top.

 

The leadership, the marketing, the structure and the financing and finally, quite often a distant last, the technology that the company is supposedly based on, are what ultimately takes a company to the top of the heap for the next round of company / corporation consolidation.

 

Think Microsoft whose DOS operating system was far inferior to a lot of other wannabee computer software designs in the 1980's but MS got to the top by a combination of innovative marketing and being totally ruthless.

 

So it will be with the LSA aviation industries.

 

There are a huge number of new designs for LSA spec'ed aircraft being announced.

 

Some are even coming onto the market.

 

Most will disappear again in a few years as some already have.

 

Some will be bought out by other players.

 

The best designs will probably not survive as they will probably be just too costly, too sophisticated, poorly marketed or poorly financed and poorly organised and run companies to survive the dog eat dog aviation business environment.

 

Any one of these is enough to sink a promising design unless it is taken over by another better organised player.

 

There will be many, many very well designed and some not so well designed LSA and ultralight aircraft that will be bought by pilots the world over during the next few years which will become orphan designs as their manufacturers and designers go out of business or depart for more lucrative life styles.

 

Will Cessna and Piper survive in their present form?

 

I doubt it!

 

The personal aviation world has changed forever with the advent of the closely defined LSA category and other changes in personal aviation that are still to happen in the future and Cessna and Piper were left standing and are now trying to catch up.

 

In another 20 or 25 years time, many may be asking, what happened to Cessna and Piper, the same as they are now asking, what happened to GM, the world's biggest manufacturing company, and Ford, that they are slowly going broke.

 

In suggesting that Cessna and Piper may not be around in their present form in 20 or so years time, it is a fact that the average life of a major corporation in the USA is 40 years.

 

My personal philosphy is that when a corporation [ or an individual ] seems to be on completely on top and in an unassailable position as long as can be seen into the future, start looking for the white ants in the foundations.

 

They will be there and they will be very busy!

 

Unfortunately another factor, bureaucracy, has the inbuilt tendency for a mindless domination that will over the next couple of decades, slowly strangle the Light Sport aircraft concept, destroying the ability of small aviation enterprises to innovate and speeding the consolidation of sport aviation into a few large corporations.

 

Then sport aviation will, like GA before it, be stuck with tiny choice of safe but extremely boring and conservative and expensive aircraft designs from a handful of ultra conservative manufacturers.

 

And the cycle will start all over again!

 

 

[bushpilot]

ROMs observations are worthy of underscoring. My little contribution relates to the point about great ideas / innovations being bought out by larger entities / corporations...

 

I have an example from about 12 years ago... and there would be many others..

 

I read an article (with photos) in an inflight magazine (ANSETT, I think..) that talked about a small business in Tamania that built a fully stainless steel barbque that had a big benefit over all others - it did not drip any grease on your concrete, because of a well engineered hood design (that closed inside the frame, not outside or on it, like most) and a unique system of channels under the burners that took the grease and oil down to a collection point.

 

I tore the article out and about 2 months later got around to calling them. A guy answered the phone and advised that he had been the owner of the business (employing 5 people), but after the article was published, he had been contacted by Barbeques Galore, who had then made him too good an offer to knock back, to sell his business - and, of course his IP. He went on to tell me that Barbeques Galore had no intention of keeping building his designs, so they just closed the business - having buried the 'competition'.

 

To this day I've been checking at Barbeques Galore and nothing as good as that guy's designs have emerged..

 

Sad really...

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Great post ROM. The area that I reckon is open to debate is the "who will survive?" question.

 

At our end of the market we have seen some interesting behaviour from the GA manufacturers. Cessna has moved on an LSA which will also become their new primary training platform. Cirrus have aligned themselves with an existing proven LSA and added it to their product line.

 

However the piston engine end of their market is not where the main game is being played. Their main cashflow is - in the case of Cessna - in the bizjet arena. That's the area that's seen major growth and that growth continues despite the oil price/exonomy issues. The part of their business that has contracted in the face of those economic pressures is the piston singles. Whilst they still grew in the last year the growth really slowed.

 

We have both Piper and Cirrus recently flying their "jets" for the first time - the VLJ end of the market.

 

At the same time consolidation continues - a number of the upstart VLJ companies are gone (ATG with the Javelin) or going and in the engine space Thielert succumbed - as many companies do - to its founder/leader.

 

So for me picking the winners is harder than you suggest.

 

Thanks for the thought provoking post.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest palexxxx]

and in the engine space Thielert succumbed - as many companies do - to its founder/leader.

I don't think Thielert is gone yet. Apparently they have had many enquiries from other businesses to take them over. Unfortunately for them however they may have lost their major customer in Diamond aircraft. Diamond is looking at using another diesel also from Austria to power their DA40 and DA42.