Mid-air collision near Moorabbin airport

[Guest palexxxx]

Snippets from http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/28/2348477.htm?section=australiaMoorabbin residents fear repeat plane crash

 

Residents around Moorabbin Airport in Melbourne are worried there could be a repeat of yesterday's deadly plane crash.

 

"

What was there first? The airport or the houses? If they're so worried about having a plane crash on their house they should never have built there in the first place.

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

What was there first? The airport or the houses? If they're so worried about having a plane crash on their house they should never have built there in the first place.

I heard that residents in the Moorabbin area are forced to pay a higher housing insurance premium because of the proximity to the airport.

 

 

[Guest Pabloako]

Additional Snippets from the news

 

• Moorabbin airport general manager Phil McConnell confirmed both aircraft were in take-off phase and were being monitored by air traffic controllers.
   
   
  
• He said the coroner, the Australian Transport Safety Bureau and Airservices Australia – the regulator in charge of airport control towers – were all investigating.
   
   
  
• Airfield chaplain Rick Wilson, a pilot, said international trainee pilots and air traffic controllers often had difficulty communicating with each other and some controllers did not want to deal with the students.
   
   
  
• Mr Wilson said the mid-air collision had caused serious damage to the Piper Warrior and its pilots -- a trainee and an instructor at the RVAC -- were lucky to survive.
  "The left-hand back tail has been chewed off. There's propeller marks on the left-hand fuselage and on the left wing," he said. "He's lucky it didn't chew into the main wing, or he'd be dead.
  "If it had've been another six inches towards the rudder he would have lost the stabiliser and never got back.
  "We think one's come up from underneath and hit the other."
   
   
  
• "The instructor was a little bit shaky. He's only 21," Mr Wilson said. "He's just coming to terms with the whole situation.
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Moorabbin airport general manager Phil McConnell confirmed both aircraft were in take-off phase and were being monitored by air traffic controllers.

Moorabbin is a GAAP so ATC would have only been giving traffic advisory information. Separation would have been the responsibilty of the pilots.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

yep.. they are very specific on this matter, they DON"T provide airbourne speration..

 

Its parralel runways at moorabin isn't it..anyone know how to get yesterdays wx from naips??..

 

Can just see the media running with that comment about the controllers not wanting to deal with the students...i mean c'mon, how rediculous that they could suggest this in some way played a part..sure, its hard to understand some non english background pilots, but to say this caused the accident is a bit far fetched i think..it may have been one peice of the swiss cheese..But controllers take there jobs very seriously, and while they may harbour personal views on certain things im sure they wouldn't ignore a pilot..and of course the media are not smart enough to differentiate between GAAP and CTA tower operations so they will just run with "the tower operators" line...im surprised they didnt call both acft ultralights..

 

 

[Guest airsick]

i mean c'mon, how rediculous that they could suggest this in some way played a part..sure, its hard to understand some non english background pilots, but to say this caused the accident is a bit far fetched i think..it may have been one peice of the swiss cheese..But controllers take there jobs very seriously, and while they may harbour personal views on certain things im sure they wouldn't ignore a pilot.

Ok, a bit of a scenario here. Let's assume for a moment that they were responsible for separation. If they issued instructions to the 150 and he didn't understand/comply then I am sure they would have given instructions to the other aircraft with a proficient English speaker aboard.

 

As you said, it is absurd to suggest this played a decisive role in the accident.

 

and of course the media are not smart enough to differentiate between GAAP and CTA tower operations so they will just run with "the tower operators" line...im surprised they didnt call both acft ultralights..

Well sky news called it a collision between two large aircraft in the studio before crossing to the guy on the ground who said something along the lines of "one aircraft was a Cessna which as we all know is one of those very very small aircraft."

 

 

[Guest J430]

Media: Car runs off road and crashes into loungeroom while owners watching TV

 

DO GOODERS: Move all roads away from houses!!

 

Makes about as much sense!

 

Morons!!!! The lot of em!

 

J

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

i recall some time ago here about some comments on some near misses and incidents around the hoxton and camden areas due to students not being able to understand English.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, it can make things difficult, but, it shouldn't distract you from the first 2, aviate, navigate....then communicate.. if communication breaks down for ANY reason, the first 2 rules apply... you can always ask for them to repeat...and repeat...and repeat...

 

 

[Guest Flyer40]

Ian, to avoid going through this debate every time a recent incident is discussed, why don't we establish some forum rules for discussing incidents.

 

In my view it's only improper for the accident investigators to speculate. They have a job to do and need to remain objective. For the rest of us, the discussions we have are healthy and respectful and if they enhance our safety culture they're worth having.

 

It's worth considering that as potential future victims ourselves, we're all stakeholders in these incidents and the desire to discuss them is natural. That's why the final reports are usually made public.

 

These three simple rules could work;

 

1. Say nothing disparaging about the victims.

 

2. Show appropriate sensitivity to the family and friends of the victims (remember they may be on this forum).

 

3. Do not make unofficial/unverified assertions about causation.

 

We should feel free to discuss these incidents maturely and respectfully. There have been some divergent hypotheticals that arose from previous incidents where the discussions took a left turn and ended up having nothing to do with the original incident. That's a good thing too when it results in a safety enhancing discussion.

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

A response from our leader...

 

Trainee pilots should practise in regional areas away from urban centres, Victorian Premier John Brumby says.

 

Mr Brumby was responding to a plane crash on Wednesday which claimed the life of an Indian trainee pilot over an outer Melbourne suburb.

 

Akash Ananth, 24, died on a solo flight after his plane and another aircraft clipped mid-air causing the Cessna 150 to spiral out of control and crash, barely missing several homes and a school.

 

"I think there's a strong argument for saying that more of the training which occurs can be done in regional and country areas where there's less population and where there are valuable job opportunities," Mr Brumby said.

 

"Theoretically it should be impossible for two planes to collide, so there's been obviously a failure, a serious failure somewhere in the system but I'm advised that training there has been undertaken for many, many years with a good safety record.

 

"I think one of the things that we would like to see over time is more of this sort of training undertaken in less densely populated areas and I suspect that's one of the things that may come out of the reports."

 

Mr Brumby said Moorabbin Airport, from where both planes took off, was regulated by the federal government under a 20-year licence and was not subject to any state controls.

 

However, the Victorian government would make a submission to a review of the airport, which was due next year.

 

Mr Brumby said the government would await the investigations of the state coroner, Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) and the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB).

 

"It's one of the busiest airports in Australia, I think there are something like 500,000 air movements there each year. It's also, I'm advised, one of the safest ... but obviously we want to ensure that the airports are as safe as possible.

 

"Obviously yesterday was a tragic accident and tragic for the family concerned, but it could have been worse, we are grateful for the fact no schools or occupied houses were affected, but we will look very closely at the report of the coroner and CASA."

 

Ref: The Age

 

 

[Guest airsick]

"Theoretically it should be impossible for two planes to collide

What an outlandish statement. In fact, at risk of fuelling their argument, theoretically there should be more collisions than there has been. If some 500,000 aircraft movements occur every year and they all converge into the one spot then there is no substance to any theory saying such a collision is impossible. Where do politicians get off making such stupid claims?

 

"I think one of the things that we would like to see over time is more of this sort of training undertaken in less densely populated areas

Yet the government still approves building and development in the areas around existing airports! What a bunch of, well, you know whats.Here is a thought. Let's build an airport in some out of the way place, much like Moorabbin was when it was built. A few years later we can then approve some houses and other unsuitable developments in the immediate area around this airport. A few years later again we will then jump on the bandwagon and whinge about the airport!

 

With people like this in power it is no wonder aviation is going to the dogs in this country. This sort of attitude reinforces the need to let these idiots know what we think. On that note check out this thread I started, slightly off topic but still in the same vain as this rant! :)

 

Alert Security gone mad - Recreational Flying

 

 

[Mazda]

Condolences to all interested parties. It is very sad.

 

I don't think there is a problem at all with speculation, people might come up with something useful. I don't understand why so many people effectively want to put a gag order on discussions to do with safety! Having had dealings with the families of accident victims, I can assure you they will be looking for answers.

 

I feel for the instructor who sent him solo, it must be awful. Congratulations to the pilots in the Warrior for landing safely.

 

As for the comments of John Brumby ... why not just ban car accidents? Yes! Let's mandate against them. After all, theoretically it should be impossible for two cars to collide, so there must be a serious failure in the system if they do. Let's ban cars completely around cities and suburbs, let's move them all to the country where they can't veer off the road and into schools or occupied houses!

 

I wonder how many "car movements" there are around Melbourne in a year? It's terribly dangerous.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Mazda:thumb_up::thumb_up:

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Condolences to all interested parties. It is very sad. I don't think there is a problem at all with speculation, people might come up with something useful. I don't understand why so many people effectively want to put a gag order on discussions to do with safety! Having had dealings with the families of accident victims, I can assure you they will be looking for answers.

 

I feel for the instructor who sent him solo, it must be awful. Congratulations to the pilots in the Warrior for landing safely.

 

As for the comments of John Brumby ... why not just ban car accidents? Yes! Let's mandate against them. After all, theoretically it should be impossible for two cars to collide, so there must be a serious failure in the system if they do. Let's ban cars completely around cities and suburbs, let's move them all to the country where they can't veer off the road and into schools or occupied houses!

 

I wonder how many "car movements" there are around Melbourne in a year? It's terribly dangerous.

Just ask one Victorian instructor who ended up with a car in his lounge room last week. I'm sure he has a view:laugh:

 

On the subject of collective nouns - I just want to make sure that everyone is aware of the collective noun(s) for politicians: When talking about a group of politicians one correctly calls them either a "dropkick of politicians" or (and more relevant in this case) a "kneejerk of politicians".

 

I like Flyer40's 3 rules. I don't have any issue with a discussion carried on on those lines - and this is a little personal for me having lost a cousin in a mid-air earlier this year. Why don't we implement those rules in a sticky Ian?

 

Finally I think Brumby should ask the Federal government to move YMMB, YMML and YMEN to a point about 50 nm west of Alice Springs - entirely in the interests of the safety of Australia's population. He could then have flying training conducted another 300 nm further west of there again. All safe and everyone happy.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

i recall some time ago here about some comments on some near misses and incidents around the hoxton and camden areas due to students not being able to understand English.

Once while taxiing back I was told to "look out for these guys, you never know what they are doing." So I replied: "presumable the same as me, learning how to fly". "Yeah, but at least you understand English."

I have been cut off on final, had to go around because someone was rather slow to move after being cleared for take-off and had to extend upwind because a faster a/c behind me went around too close behind me and just went full steam ahead. (The controlled saw this happening and told me to extend.)

 

Did these guys have Asian accents? For sure, but the majority of students here do and so statistically, there is nothing strange here. But it would be all too easy to factor that in even when none of the incidents were likely language related. Even though Mr. Cut-off was told he was to follow the Sportstar (he didn't report traffic sighted), the a/c in front of me went rather wide and I had to follow suit. I misjudged and could have gone tighter, but still. He probably just didn't see me and recognizing aircraft types isn't part of the syllabus - he probably mistook the other a/c for me.

 

In both cases, the fantastic visibility offered by the Sportstar made a world of difference. Both Mr. Cut-off and Mr. Full Steam Go-Around were on top and to the right of me in positions I would have never seen them so early in a 152. I spotted the go-around at the the same time the call came in and saw the cut-off from my peripherals while turning final. I don't think collision would have been imminent in either case had I continued as planned and I would have spotted them later, but it would have been a lot closer still than it was now. And that was too close for comfort already.

 

 

[Guest palexxxx]

Mr Brumby said Moorabbin Airport, from where both planes took off, was regulated by the federal government under a 20-year licence and was not subject to any state controls.Ref: The Age

How quick is Brumby to shift all blame to the Feds Ayy?!

 

 

[antzx6r]

When looking for a training facility one of my prerequisites was to be in a quieter(aircraft traffic) less populated area. I didn't intend never to train in a built up area, I just felt that as a new student, I needed to get used to flying the aircraft proficiently before dealing with crowded cts. I tend to agree with dopey kneejerk pollies in this respect. For at least ab-initio training, students should be taken to less crowded areas. By first solo, a student can still be overwhelmed by multiple radio calls. There is no real training for keeping your cool and your eyes out of the cockpit and keep situational awareness. Hell, at 70hrs, I still get overwhelmed. And this is something we as pilots/instructors can do to help the situation without relying on gov. or CASA or airservices to implement.

 

Instead of just blindly following the masses closing airfields left right and centre, something needs to be instigated to keep the industry going. Like legislation that any funds gained from the sale of airports needs to be put back into building new airfields in less populated areas. Because it seems that councils have gone crazy with the idea of making profits from the sales. Sad that this kind of thing becomes political ammunition.

 

Deepest condolences to all conserned. Of all the loses we experience in aviation, these are the most gut wrenching. When one so young is lost.

 

 

[Guest Bendorn]

RULES....

 

When I first saw this thread, I thought to myself, "I wonder how many posts it will take before someone throws in some opinion, speculation or hearsay?" 6.

 

This happens all the time and it is totally inappropriate and I think Flyer40's post regarding rules should be adopted and strictly adhered to.

 

Unless you were there and saw it, or have all the statements from witnesses, engineer's reports, investigators notes and their reports, you're not qualified to comment on causation and alike.

 

Comments, opinions etc should only be voiced when the OFFICIAL investigation has been completed. Then open it to the forum for comment.

 

By all means quote newspaper reports as that is their job. Keep the rest to yourself until the time is right.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

bendorn.. i agree with much of what you've said, but (there's always a but) i don't think ive ever seen open discussion on this forum of accidents that happened 2 years ago (the amount of time for the usual atsb report to come out). Don't get me wrong, i think it can be done with respect and the feelings of those involved at heart.

 

What if you were learning at moorabin right now, about to go on your first solo tomorrow?? wouldn't you like to hear from people that can give educated opinions as to the possible scenarios that lead to the tragedy, thereby being forarmed against a similar fate becoming you??...its no good in 2 years time learning about the causes that might save you tomorrow... do ya see my point..

 

i think this can be done with those rules flyer40 added in mind...while i havn't speculated as to HOW the two aircraft came together, its obvious that there was a collision. with tragic results, and we all feal for those involved..

 

cheers (flamesuit on)

 

 

[Admin]

The rules that have been mentioned in this thread will probably be incorporated into the new set of rules that are being developed (hereinafter referred to as The FUHRER - The Forum User's Handbook of Really Entertaining Rules )

 

 

[Guest avi8tor72]

Ok I think my comments may have been slightly misunderstood so I will leave it at that. I agree reflection on this type of incident (when the facts are known) are very important, it would be more of a tragedy if nothing was learnt. I too will be taking extra care in the circuit. As for the media and the reports from locals I cant agree more. People who move to an area near an airport and then complain about the airplanes need to wake up! As for the media well what can be said, its a shame they can report what they wish and the general public swallow it.

 

 

[vk3auu]

The problem with fatal aircraft accidents is that we don't have many of them so that when they do happen there is a big kerfuffle and we get a knee jerk reaction from various planning authorities with generally impractical ways in which they may be prevented.

 

When one considers the amount of traffic at places like Moorabin it is a tribute to those responsible, that accidents are comparatively infrequent. This is particularly so when you take into account the stresses placed on a student in his early days of solo flights where not only does he have to concentrate on flying the aircraft, but also has to keep a look-out for others who may also be very low time pilots.

 

Perhaps there is a case for initial solo flights being conducted at less busy airstrips within reasonably short distances from places like Moorabin and Bankstown.

 

David

 

 

[Mazda]

The official reports don't necessarily get it right, so I don't have a problem with lateral thinking speculation.

 

 

[Guest Bendorn]

I hear you Merv... 2 years time is a long time to wait.... However, if someone wants to talk scenarios, fine... but in another thread. From personal experience, as an investigator, I find opinion from an unqualified person, frustrating and it can be damaging in so many ways at many different levels.

 

If people want to comment on what is written or said in the media, go right ahead, because the content is already out in the public arena.

 

Even myself looking at the photos, I have my own thoughts as to why the plane actually crashed. Was I there? My opinion is based on 2 so so quality black and white photos and bits and pieces from the newspaper, and we know what they're like. Is that informed? No where near it? How qualified am I to give my opinion? 1/10

 

That is my point.