160cc motors

[Guest ozzie]

apparently the regs read one engine and one prop. the lazair is the only twin on the register as it operates under a grandfather clause. IE we was here first.

 

seems if you want to do something outside of the square you have to do it covertly.

 

 

[Bluehawktechnologies]

well the other way is to add it to our foreign License. There is not restrictions on this.

 

Then CASA can not legally interfere with its internal politics.

 

But I did want to have this toy registered as a ultralight in Australia because it is being built here.

 

The old saying "There is many ways to skin a rabbit" is so true.

 

 

[jcamp]

For 95.10

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/rules/orders/095.htm

 

and select

 

95.10 Privately Built Single Place Ultralight Aeroplanes – Exemption from Provisions of the Civil Aviation Regulations

 

Which seems to cover it. Other stuff is in

 

95.55 Certain ultralight aeroplanes-Exemption from provisions of the Civil Aviation Regulations 1988

 

and this does have engine resrictions for some types but not 95.10

 

 

[Downunder]

Hello,

 

Alot of RC aircraft engines run at around 40/1 oil/fuel ratio, so I think 25/1 maybe conservative. They also rev up to 10 000 rpm. I don't have any knowledge of the victa engines however.

 

4 hp from 160cc looks to be extremely poor. You can buy cheap chinese RC engines for $200 that are 50cc and produce 4hp. weighing 1.5kg. I'm definately not saying you should use these but just showing an example.

 

A 3W210 (210cc, german made, high quality, twin spark, 4.8kg,31x12 3blade prop) makes 21hp.

 

Have you thought of having inboard engines only with free wheeling props outboard? What about larger engines inboard and smaller out? You could have the same dia props with different pitch.

 

Regards,

 

R J Mitchell

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

on a good day i get 5.5hp and 35/40lb thrust at 5500rpm from 100cc pioneers

 

 

[Bluehawktechnologies]

Hello,Alot of RC aircraft engines run at around 40/1 oil/fuel ratio, so I think 25/1 maybe conservative. They also rev up to 10 000 rpm. I don't have any knowledge of the victa engines however.

4 hp from 160cc looks to be extremely poor. You can buy cheap chinese RC engines for $200 that are 50cc and produce 4hp. weighing 1.5kg. I'm definately not saying you should use these but just showing an example.

 

A 3W210 (210cc, german made, high quality, twin spark, 4.8kg,31x12 3blade prop) makes 21hp.

 

Have you thought of having inboard engines only with free wheeling props outboard? What about larger engines inboard and smaller out? You could have the same dia props with different pitch.

 

Regards,

 

R J Mitchell

The Victa 160cc is a high torque and the 4hp was on a standard Victa float bowl carby system and governed , I have a larger ungoverned carby system to try.

 

I do not want a speed demon as the airframe is not designed for it and that is not my purpose for building it.

 

I know four 160cc can safely lift 250kg without a large wing area.

 

I have retractable landing gear to lower drag , a enclosed fuselage , adaptable engine mounts for various engines and I have a large wing area also.

 

The A 3W210 Engine you spoke of I will have to price them to see if they would be in my budget.

 

I chose the victa 160cc because we have plenty sitting around.

 

Have you thought of having inboard engines only with free wheeling props outboard? What about larger engines inboard and smaller out? You could have the same dia props with different pitch.

This would place a large amount of drag on the aircraft not including the stress on the wings.

 

This is just for something for me to bounce from home to work for fun and for weekends.

 

 

[Downunder]

Hello, I guess what I'm trying to say is that you can get the power without the weight of the victas.

 

Less weight, lighter airframe.

 

Not having the weight of outboard engines would give you less stress on the wings wouldn't it?

 

Can't see free wheeling props adding drag.

 

I recon you could use 2 engines with more power than the victas and at a lot less than half the weight.

 

The 3W engines are not cheap but that was just an example of whats around.

 

Ofcourse if you really want those mower motors to fly then by all means go for it !!!!:big_grin:

 

Regards,

 

R J Mitchell

 

 

[Bluehawktechnologies]

Hello, I guess what I'm trying to say is that you can get the power without the weight of the victas.Less weight, lighter airframe.

Not having the weight of outboard engines would give you less stress on the wings wouldn't it?

 

Can't see free wheeling props adding drag.

 

I recon you could use 2 engines with more power than the victas and at a lot less than half the weight.

 

The 3W engines are not cheap but that was just an example of whats around.

 

Ofcourse if you really want those mower motors to fly then by all means go for it !!!!:big_grin:

 

Regards,

 

R J Mitchell

The wings have been built to handle four engines mounted but having a dummy set that look the same as the inboard will produce not only Prop drag but also the engine bay itself will act like a speed break.

 

I have looked at the Yamaha 250cc motors as well as these would fit my mounts but my issue was speed wise as these would make it hard to keep speed down.

 

I made a contra rotation blade setup on one of my test frames to see what it does so If I find I need more power I can bolt the assembly on (this takes 2 hours/engine)

 

and this would give me to add four more if needed (over kill I think plus it will look odd)

 

My main issue is finding propellers as I want straight props not these fancy three bladed ones.

 

Currently I am using a wooden prop and this is great but the gentleman whom made it for my has now passed away:sad:

 

 

[Mick]

C'mon Bluehawk,

 

We gotta see some pic's of this!!!!!!

 

 

[facthunter]

Non-synch.

 

Before you go to the trouble of building this project could I suggest that you get 4 engines running in a connected structure to see if the out of synchronisation harmonics can be lived with. Could be very unpleasant. Nev..

 

 

[pylon500]

Hey this all sounds like fun! :thumb_up:

 

I have spoken to various people in the AUF, RAAus and sure enough, if you can keep it under 300kg, you can just about do anything.

 

Hi Ozzie, yeah I flew Fernando's Lazair quad, a little scarey, but I'm fairly sure it was all quite legal. i_dunno

 

I had even had thoughts of going sort of the same way using the Lazair style wing structure to build a scaled Me-323 Gigant using SIX Kirby or Mccullough two strokes (been keeping this quiet so no one would beat me, but I'll never have the time anyway...)

 

The fun thing flying a multi like Fernado's was using the four Tiny-Taks to sync all the engines.

 

ps, Freewheeling props DO cause drag. :ah_oh:

 

C'mon BlueHawk, where's some piccies? :pics:

 

Arthur.

 

 

 

 

 

[vk3auu]

Yeah, that was the one at Narromine. That was where the photo was taken .

 

David:juggle:

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Be nice to copy the pod and landing gear for mine. need the extra engines for the increased weight. 4 electrics would be nice and build the batteries into the pod

 

Arthur, why did you find it a little scary?

 

when you are using these Victa type engines make sure you knock all the fins off the flywheel if you are not using forced air cooling. you pick up a few extra hundred rpms.

 

does anyone have the prop pitch dia for victas.?

 

ozzie

 

 

[pylon500]

The scary bit was watching the wing skins wrinkling in turbulence, they may do it normally, I had just never noticed.

 

I also weighed about 105 kg then as well :ah_oh: only about 90kg now, doctors orders!

 

does anyone have the prop pitch dia for victas.?

Don't know what size the reduction props were on the Scouts, the ones I made for my Kirby's (144cc) were 32"x12"s direct drive.

They probably would have ended up around 32"x16" to be effective.

 

Yeah, c'mon electrtics...:thumb_up:

 

What, no gasps at my Gigant? :hittinghead:

 

Arthur.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

What, no gasps at my Gigant?

I was blown away by the number of wheels on it. How does it turn on the ground?

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Bluehawk, details of your contra rotating props please, please, pretty please :hittinghead: I've got my ideas but I'd like to others.

 

 

[pylon500]

How does it turn on the ground?

Funny, I was just thinking that last night in the shower (do my best thinking there).

There's five wheels per side, I assume the front two (per side) caster and the others have brakes?

 

Add a bit of asymmetric throttle, and away you go!

 

Arthur.

 

 

[Bluehawktechnologies]

Hey this all sounds like fun! :thumb_up:I have spoken to various people in the AUF, RAAus and sure enough, if you can keep it under 300kg, you can just about do anything.

Hi Ozzie, yeah I flew Fernando's Lazair quad, a little scarey, but I'm fairly sure it was all quite legal. i_dunno

 

I had even had thoughts of going sort of the same way using the Lazair style wing structure to build a scaled Me-323 Gigant using SIX Kirby or Mccullough two strokes (been keeping this quiet so no one would beat me, but I'll never have the time anyway...)

 

The fun thing flying a multi like Fernado's was using the four Tiny-Taks to sync all the engines.

 

ps, Freewheeling props DO cause drag. :ah_oh:

 

C'mon BlueHawk, where's some piccies? :pics:

 

Arthur.

Sorry for the slow response I have tested four of the Victa mower engines to see about thrust. It does not have enough rpm:sad:

 

I am still looking at the other motors you guys talked of though and so far the performance is 100% better than the Victa.

 

My engine mounts also seems to have issues (development of cracks have turned up after tests)It could be because of the stiff wings so now I have to inspect the wing internals for damage as well.

 

The experiment continues.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

There's five wheels per side, I assume the front two (per side) caster and the others have brakes?

Add a bit of asymmetric throttle, and away you go!

Don't now how it turns but it does. I was beginning to think that this was one of the propaganda tricks played during the war - hey look at the really big and nasty plane we have when we don't really have it type of thing - so I did a bit of looking around. It turns out it is actually a powered version of a glider, the ME 321. Anyway, in my travels I came across this video which contains some really good footage of it in action.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIN6JCy02j8

 

 

[pylon500]

How does it turn on the ground?

Going by that video, it looks to have a pretty good turning circle for it's size!

You can see the similarity between the Gigant and Lazair wing , just size.

 

Where's my CAD package.....?

 

Arthur.

 

 

[vk3auu]

It should be pretty hard to do a ground loop.

 

David