To do my PPL or not..

[Guest Cralis]

Hi guys,

 

I'd like to ask a few questions that might guide me in the right direction of whether or not to do my PPL.

 

I see it will cost upwards from $15K to get me to PPL status. But once I have done all the hours, tests and got my PPL... what next?

 

I'd love to be able to.. maybe once or twice a month, go with my family on a trip to small towns around Queensland or further away for a weekend. I can't afford to own an aircraft (yet). If you hire an aircraft.. can you take it for the weekend? Do you pay for the hours it's away, or the hours the engine is running?

 

Then, there would be the option to further my licencing up to maybe instructors. That's maybe a pipe dream, as I have a family to support... but the options there. Are fixed wing instructors in any form of demand?

 

I'm trying to work out if it's worth the 15K or so to get a licence... What can I do with it once I am qualified? And what sort of costs are involved in being a recreational pilot in Australia.

 

Hopefully people can give mme some opinions. Maybe someone had the same thoughts as me, and have achieved their goals.

 

Would be good to hear both positive and negative feelings.

 

Thanks guys.

 

 

[Matt]

So many questions...and fair enough too, it's not an easy decision to make...particularly given the $ involved.

 

Firstly, the $15K quoted for PPL is probably at the upper end of the spectrum though, more likely to be in THE $10K range...still not talking small numbers though. If you then want to go instructing, in the GA world you'll need a commercial licence (so double and then a little bit your PPL quote) and then an instructor rating...some more time and cash required to get that.

 

As with everything in life, you need to determine whether your passion / enthusiasm and the rewards of flying are worth the investment - time and money. Everyone on this site would say the same as me - HELL YES IT'S WORTH IT! It's a disease that has no cure...not that I'd be looking for one.

 

Regarding aircraft hiring, generally you only pay for the hours the aircraft is either in the air or the engine is turning. If you take it for a weekend and fly it for 3 hours, you pay for 3 hours. Depending on the school / club, you may not get the option to take it for that long i.e. your 3 hours over 2 days would mean that they cant get 6 or 7 hours per day training out of it.

 

Are fixed wing instructors in demand - you betcha! A quick read of any aviation magazine, news site over the past 12 months will quickly show you that the vast majority of instructors are being snapped up by the airlines - big and small - thus leaving the ranks of instructors left to train the next generation of pilots a bit thin. CASA actually have a bit of a taskforce together with some of the larger schools to attempt to address this.

 

Hope that's of some use...plenty of others here will be able to provide some insight as well...lots of diverse experience on this forum...which is what makes it such a lovely spot to spend some time.

 

Cheers,

 

Matt

 

 

[Guest Cralis]

Thanks Matt.

 

That's all good news. I guess the only bad-ish news is the cost factor. I'm a software developer at the moment, so although I earn OK to support my family, flying is a very heavy extra expense. Well, the learning part. The schools I look at seem to say 15 weeks duration. I assume there is the option to do it over a year (For example)? But that might increase the overall costs, right?

 

That's amazing news about instructors being snapped up. However, I think I may have missed the boat there. At 33... in full time employment.. Id probably only get to CPL with Instructors in 2 years... and only able to start in around 6 to 8 months... so I'd be 36, with low hours.. which would put me pretty far down the food chain compared to a 25 year old with 200 hours of CPL. (Am I right there?)

 

So, I think I'll need to pay for my own hours of flying.

 

That's interesting about the plane hire and only playing for engine time. I agree about selling a planes time for 2 days but only paying 3 hours. Could someone maybe give an example of what they could do with a hire plane and the sort of costs involved? To me, the only thing possible is maybe a flight from one airport to another, and then back, as a sight seeing tour. Which don't get me wrong - would be amazing!

 

Could anyone also recommend a school around the Brisbane area that I could browser their site for info?

 

Thanks guys,

 

Craig

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Firstly, cost factor.

 

If you do your RAA certificate first it will work out cheaper. Generally the rates are lower for these aircraft and instructors. Once you have this ticket you can then count the hours towards your PPL. But be warned, find a school that is willing to do this first or you might get bitten as others have found out.

 

There are limitations with the RAA certificate though - flying during daylight hours only, limited to one passenger, etc. Nonetheless it is a great way to get into flying and if you decide that you and your wife want to go for a weekend away together without the kids it is much cheaper than the old 172 on the line at the local club.

 

Secondly, what can you do once you have it?

 

Anything you want to! Well, within reason anyway. There are many fly ins that happen throughout the year, your local club will probably have fly away weekends, and you can always do your own thing too. The limiting factor is you!

 

Some clubs will let you hire for the weekend and charge you for the time you fly, some will charge a minimum, say 4 hours per day, while others just plain won't let you. This all depends on the club/school you hire from so you will probably have to speak to them about this.

 

I have seen many aircraft at various airports with a 'for hire' sign on them when I have been out and about so it might be worth wandering around your local strip and checking it out. The private hire guys like this tend to be less stringent in my experience and it can be a good way to get an aircraft reasonably cheaply.

 

For clubs check out this site - http://www.aeroclub.com.au/ You should be able to make a start with those listed there. Others in the forums might be able to make some personal recommendations though.

 

 

[sain]

Probably a cheaper way to do it again is to do the RA-AUS route, but doing the PPL exams. The GA exams are accepted by RA-AUS (i believe), but not the other way around.

 

Your RA-Aus hours will count towards your PPL though

 

Mind you for this you'd need a school which teaches both. Check with your local instructor.

 

 

[antzx6r]

I'm moving up to the Brisbane area in a couple of weeks. And like the above posts am looking to get a PPL conversion soon.

 

Firstly, where are all the RAAus folk flying from up there? I'm looking for a school/club to hire anything from lightwings to Sportstars. Mostly HP types. My experience is Jabiru J160 and Tecnam golf though I would like to expand that experience so not restricted to those two. Whould be nice to do a tail wheel endorsment too.

 

Secondly, Motzartmerv, I here you instruct at camden in a school with both RAAus and VH rego'd aircraft. Is there anyone in a similar position around Brisbane. I'm looking for a school that will look favourably upon my RAA hours and training to do the PPL conversion.

 

 

[Guest Macnoz]

Hi antzx6r

 

Give me a call when coming this way.

 

I reckon looking at your profile pic I have flown that same Golf – Ashley’s yeah.

 

I have a syndicated J160 on crosshire into a flying school in YCAB

 

You will not be as fortunate as those at SCN as tower hours Archerfield are every day not just weekend.

 

There is rumour of one school there purchasing a Jab but it would have to be VH for now.

 

There are no dual purpose schools such as Gostner in CN up here to my knowledge but CAB has PPL schools as well as a selection of RAA.

 

What better way to do you tail dragger endorsement than a genuine war bird Piper Cub that is RAA @YCAB

 

John

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Just a quick correction on the instructor shortage. Yes at the moment or at least in the last few months there was a small shortage of experianced instructors. The tide has turned again and with everyone downsizing again (REX VIRGIN QF) employment has once again slowed down so everyone out there at the moment who are doing instructor ratings will fill any demand that is needed right now. The good news is aviation is a giant cycle allbeit a slow one so in another 5-8 years there will be a shortage again.... maybe!

 

On another note instructing can bring great enjoyment but in general the pay is appalling and the work day very long so that is worth thinking about aswell.

 

The last thing that I weill bring up is instructing with a bare licence, that is just completing your CPL or RAAcert and then going into instructing. You will have minimum hours and no experiance so think about what you will have to offer the students you will be teaching. This is one of my pet hates but I would love to see a minimum amount of command hours set for instructors before they can teach in GA. Helicopters already have this but you can walk into a school and be tough by an instructor who has 200 hrs total time and has never flown anywhere but that flying school do you think you would be getting value for money???

 

I don't mean to be negative and flying is great fun (why else would I be on here!!) but its not all beer and skittles so you need to go into it with your eye open.

 

Adam.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Can you be a VH instructor without CPL? I thought you could - obviously after a certain amount of hours and instructor training. In the RA-Aus world, you certainly can instruct without CPL - just need the hours, training and exams. See the RA-Aus operations manual.

 

Assuming you are a good student, PPL should cost you less then $15K. If you do most of your hours in RA-Aus aircraft, $10K should be possible. But you'll need to PPL to fly the family as under RA-Aus you can only have 2 seats.

 

Training can stretch out as long as you like; many folks do one hour of flying a week. I do not see why that would cost more than an intensive course, except maybe for petrol in driving to the airfield more often!

 

I will also have to work out "how" I am going to fly when I finish training. I am not interested in instructing (well, maybe in retirement many years from now!) but maybe I can work out a scam in owning an aircraft I cross-hire somewhere. (i.e.: a school or club puts it online for hire & fly or training and the owner gets a cut) Until then I'll regularly hire if I can.

 

Good luck in your decision!

 

Bas.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

You need a CPL to be a GA Instructor.

 

 

[Guest AusDarren]

Unless you relocate to the UK.

 

they allow PPL to get an instructor rating.

 

However here in Aus, Brent is correct.

 

Regards,

 

AusDarren

 

 

[Mazda]

As others have said, doing RA-Aus training would be a cheaper way to go on the way. On the VH/GA side, you would need a CPL and either a night rating or instrument rating to get an instructor rating. Plus a Class 1 medical. CPL minimum hours is 150, and that is if you enrol in a 150 hour course at a school. Otherwise it is 200 hours for the CPL (minimum). Then you'd be looking at the night rating (not many, say 10 hours or so? I can't remember) or instrument rating (40 hours+), plus instructor rating (around 50 hours). So going the GA way, you would be a brand new shiny instructor at a minimum of around 210 to 300 hours, depending on which way you go.

 

Instructors are in great demand, good ones more so. The problem is the pay doesn't match the demand. You'd most likely be on under $30,000 pa after spending all that money on training. And that is why so many end up with the airlines and the turnover is high.

 

As others have said, extra experience before teaching would probably be a good thing too, if you can do it.

 

As for hiring, yes, you pay for the hours you fly, but some places will give a minimum number of hours because that aircraft could stay at the school and fly all day, earning more money.

 

What can you do when you hire? Go to places few ever see, faster than most people ever get there. See the outback, see the beaches. Take your friends. Or learn aerobatics or formation flying, and have fun not going anywhere at all.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

CPL minimum hours is 150, and that is if you enrol in a 150 hour course at a school. Otherwise it is 200 hours for the CPL (minimum). Then you'd be looking at the night rating (not many, say 10 hours or so? I can't remember) or instrument rating (40 hours+), plus instructor rating (around 50 hours). So going the GA way, you would be a brand new shiny instructor at a minimum of around 210 to 300 hours, depending on which way you go.

Not quite. You can undertake further training as part of your CPL hours. You can do night rating, instrument rating, multi engine, etc. So could be an instrument rated instructor in as little as 200 or so.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yep, airsick is right. The instrument rating can be done as part of the 150 CPL course. Our school does the IR and twin endo all in the 150 hour course, but ya still have to do the Instructor rating after the CPL.

 

cheers

 

 

[Flyer]

Hi Cralis

 

I'll start a bit differently than the rest as they have all made good points...

 

Why do you want to fly?

 

What is it about flying that makes you want to go flying?

 

What type of flying do you want to do?

 

I'd start by answering these questions first and see where that leads you.

 

When the questions are answered very honestly, and by that I mean totally focusing on what YOU want not everybody else, it then just becomes a matter of putting everything in place, making some sacrifices and making it happen.

 

As for hiring aircraft over periods of time, you will probably find that the hirer has a minimum number of hours per day requirement regardless wether you fly them or not. :confused:

 

This also can cause get-home-itis because this thing is costing me a packet......

 

Suddenly you end up in bad weather and spearing in :ah_oh:.....the forums then light up with "why did he drive a plane into a hill?" type stuff.... ....personal bitch with aircraft hirers...they could stop some people from ending up with get-home-itis...

 

Just some things to be aware of and considered.

 

All the best with your chosen path....

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest Cralis]

Why do you want to fly?

What is it about flying that makes you want to go flying?

 

What type of flying do you want to do?

Why?

 

I've always wanted to. Something about seeing things from the air. Different perspective. Seeing things that grounded people don't get to see. To be in control (Important: 'In Control') of an aircraft has got to be a spectacular feeling. To be able to fly. I guess it's hard to explain, but I do feel I have a passion that I just never kicked into gear.

 

What makes me want to fly?

 

As above, but to be able to fly to a place I have never been for a trip. To stand next to an aircraft that I am about to, or have just flown and look at it. That's got to be good. I'd like to one day be known and respected as a pilot for my precision and safety. And the more I could fly, the closer I'd be able to get to that.

 

(Also, I'm tried of Flight Simulator now... :) )

 

What type?

 

If that was a very open choice, and I could chose any form of flying - my first option would be helicopters. Specifically, I think the best job in the universe is the lucky buggers who get to fly the police choppers. Amazing equipment, something different every day, loads of hour building, flying with a team and maybe getting to do things that the average heli pilot doesn't get to do. And you get paid for it!! With a chopper, you can go to places fixed wing can't. But the costs are too high, so back to the real world - If I was younger and locked into fixed wing, it'd be a regional carrier. A people carrying job.

 

Even closer to reality - I'd like to be able to safely fly my family to destinations for holidays. I'm also hoping that my interest in aviation will trigger my daughers to get into it, and unlike what I got, I'd back my kid's 100% in going into aviation - instead of what I was told.. 'You'll never get in... so, go study'.

 

If it happened that I could have my flying paid for (Even if I wasn't making money for it), that would be spectacular - but I don't think that sort of opportunity exists for low hour PPL guys.

 

To those who have managed to make flying their career - you lucky (And probably hard working) buggers! :thumb_up:

 

 

[Flyer]

ok, so what's stopping you from flying then?

 

Start with RA if the dollar factor is too high for PPL. If I was starting again I'd start with RA....

 

 

[Guest Cralis]

Yeah, it's the money.. but I'm now in a position that I could maybe squeeze it in.

 

Whats different between the RA and a normal PPL? I'm very keen on looking into this, as so one as said anything against the RA route, and if it saves money - :thumb_up:

 

Also, I weigh 115kgs. Would this limit what I can train in/fly?

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Yeah, it's the money.. but I'm now in a position that I could maybe squeeze it in.Whats different between the RA and a normal PPL? I'm very keen on looking into this, as so one as said anything against the RA route, and if it saves money - :thumb_up:

Simply put, RAA with some of the endorsements gives you:

- Max take-off weight of up to 600KG. (most planes registered as 544, though)

 

- only two seats

 

- no controlled airspace (that is: until the CTA endorsements comes into effect, hopefully soon!)

 

- No medical required! (except if you want your CTA endorsement)

 

- 20 hours minimum (of which 5 solo), but another 10 hours pilot in command (solo) before you are allowed to take passengers and 10 hours for cross country. However, these hours can be combined so the 5 solo hours count toward the 10 needed for PAX and so do your solo cross country hours.

 

- training, depending on type and location, is between $120 and $180 an hour. Most fields you would train at don't have landing fees on top of that.

 

- See http://www.raa.asn.au/

 

- All these hours count towards your PPL also. If you have all the mentioned endorsement, from only 5 more hours or so to get your full PPL

 

Also, I weigh 115kgs. Would this limit what I can train in/fly?

Same here, and there are plenty of options. Many schools train with Jabiru 160/170, which I find a bit squeezy. I train in a Sportstar, which has tons of space - very comfortable big guy aircraft. The main thing to look for I find is cabin width and then, of course head room. Most 545+ MTOW registered aircraft will fit 200KG of people and a full tank of gas.

That said: most PPLs on a budget find themselves training in a Cessna 152 - something that is certainly *not* a big guy aircraft either. Sounds like you would also need to shell out for the extra space of a 172 or Warrior if you want PPL training!

 

 

[Flyer]

RA just cheaper by probably $100/hr to learn

 

Better weight carrying capacity compared to similar GA counterparts i.e. C150/152

 

As for being a big fella....are you just big because you're 6'5" or could you lower the MTOW a little? ;)

 

When I started my training I weighed in at 116kg and I'm 5'10". I found the Jabiru LSA a bit tight at this weight but the Jabiru J160 and Flysynthesis Texan no problem....

 

Since then we've got the MTOW down to around the 98kg mark and falling.

 

All about how much you want to put in....:thumb_up:

 

Feel free to ask as many questions as necessary as well.....we've all been here before and we're quite happy to try and steer you in the right direction although the ultimate decision will still be yours.

 

Go and talk to some schools and see what they have to offer...

 

Regards

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest Cralis]

Thanks Phil,

 

I'm 5'11, so yeah, I could lose a wee bit - and will do if it's going to save me cash and add years to my life. :)

 

I'm looking at schools nearby Brisbane at the moment, and the closest is the Free Flight one near Redcliff, it seems. (I'm 25kms North of Brisbane...)

 

I'm thinking of popping out to one or two this weekend, and if they have a [plane, I cna have a look see about sizes. Maybe try get a trial flight organised..

 

I know back in South Africa when I wanted a trial flight and they heard my weight, the mentioned using a bigger plane, but I think the Jabiru they used was the smallest one...

 

I'll keep you posted on my visit to schools. :)

 

My wife's giving me the evils... :)

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Hehe, still trying to drop the MTOW here also, but I am 6'4" and broad build, so getting to the BMI prescribed healthy weight is not going to happen.

 

That Jab in SA could well have been a 450KG aircraft, not sure if they even have the RA-Aus / LSA class down there. In Europe they don't either, so you are limited to 450KG. That pretty much makes it impossible to fly more than one person unless both of them are rather light and trim...

 

Sounds to me like you should fit into FreeFlying's Texan just fine. Don't just go down there to check it out - book a TIF! :thumb_up:

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Many students have regretted just choosing their closest flying school - see this thread for an example http://recreationalflying.com/forum/fixed-wing-training-student-pilots/10670-ra-aus-exams-2.html

 

There are (or should be) lots of other factors to consider so it maybe worth your while checking out a few other local establishments. With your location you are lucky enough to have a number of options.

 

Good Luck

 

John

 

 

[Guest Cralis]

Thanks John,

 

Yeah, I'm pretty tight with my wallet. (Born in Scotland.. :) ), so I'll be shopping to ensure I get the right school that will give me value for the $. (Note: Not the cheapest, but the best value..). Looking forward to make some Brisbane folk giving opinions on local schools?

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

A bit of a drive from Brissy but well worth it is Walters flying school. He's out near Gatton and has a drifter, low wing tecnam and maybe a sportstar aswell. He is a good bloke no BS and is very experianced in both GA and RAA. I don't have a number but I'm sure someone will or maybe google him. His name is Kevin Walters.

 

Adam.