To do my PPL or not..

[Admin]

Personally I find MS Flight Sim a great help. Before I started flying for real I used the flight sim a lot and when I started lessons my instructor was always telling me to look outside more so yes, the flight sim does tend to make you watch the instruments more.

 

This is good in one way as it got me use to flying by instruments if I ever needed to through an emergency but bad in that I wasn't flying real VFR.

 

I now use the sim a different way when flying VFR in it - I have set up a view where I see the horizon and only have my alt and asi displayed at the bottom of the screen. The alt helps me to learn to keep the outside view right to fly straight and level and the asi for when I am coming in on final to relate the view movement and speed.

 

Every now and then I will add the ah and tc to fly in cloud to keep my skill present on flying by the ah when I have no basic external visability.

 

NOTE - this is just for fun and I would be interested to hear if anyone feels this is detrimental to my real world flying.

 

 

[Guest Cralis]

Thanks guys. I'm maybe jumping the gun, and should wait to be told something before I try and find out about it. Loads happened in my trial flight that I am burning to ask questions about, but feel maybe I should wait until I'm told?

 

Ian, do you fly with peddels? Your idea of limiting the instruments, along with uysing peddels is surely a good what to get an idea of what you'll be up to. The only thing that I found completely different between the sim, and real life - is that real life is WAY better. :) I felt what a slide flet like. And I only just learned that the aircraft corrects it's self if you put in some rudder (without aileron) and the let go.. It points the way you're trying to go with the rudder, but then corrects it's self back into the reletive airflow. I thought you could turn with rudder only, but... it's uncomfortable and... difficult.

 

For the sim: I'm hoping someone will say that it's a good training aid. I understand it doesn't replace hours in the aircraft, but after a flight lesson, you can come home, and do what you did, on the sim, at a running cost of $0/hour.

 

I nearly ordered the books the school is selling from an online retailer, but as I was about to place the order, I thought... mm.. what if I find another school and they don't use the same books. So I bailed out. I'm going to another school on Saturday to have a chat, and will make a discision on Sunday. I won't fly on Saturday... just want to speak to the guys.

 

Just a quick thanks to all of you who are helping me/us out. It looks like recreational aviation has a bunch of good guys who are willing to help us wannabe guys out.

 

So many questions....

 

 

[sain]

Personally I found the simulators more of a hinderance than a help. They are just too unrealistic and you really don't get the same feel as you do flying a plane. You don't get the same visual stimulous either..

 

Your stressing too much about the turns not being co-ordinated. Just relax and have fun - it'll come in time.

 

If you have any questions during the flight don't hesitate to ask. Make sure you talk to your instructor about what your thinking as your flying a long. talk lots so they know whats happening in your head and can help you understand/achieve your flying goals more readily.

 

I'm with the other guys though - find an instructor that you like and can get on well with. Try TIFs at a few different schools, and maybe a couple of different planes too. Not showing you the books was kinda weird.

 

Glad you enjoyed your first TIF.

 

 

[Guest Cralis]

Just called another nearby school to get some info. They're flying Texans? Texcans... something like that. They want $195/hour + $65/hour ground tutition. Didn't realise the ground/preflight was that pricey! The guy was saying they're the best and all that... but his student pack was $360, and he says that's all I would need. I then asked about the RA membership thing, and he said that's an extra $160/year.

 

The school I was at on Saturday was $180/hour, $150 for the student pack with was the books and a log book. Not sure what else I will be needing. What else is there? And then also the $160/year membership thing. But they never mentioned a ground school cost per hour... And I can't get through to them to ask right now. :(

 

I guess the more you study at home - the less ground school you need?

 

The school I called today said my first exam would be air law. I'm hoping that's all in the books they sell you?

 

Since my call, I am leaning towards the school that took me for the trial. Just got a schock about the ground schooling costs.

 

 

[Guest Cralis]

Caboolture called me... they had my missed call. Had a nice chat. Looks like $170 in the J160/hour... $33/hour ground, and he thinks I'd need around 10 minutes for flight. And he was quite helpful. They're fully booked until the 11th, so I'm booking my first official lessons from the 17th of October, every second week to start with until after new year, then I'll go weekly as I get close to my solo time.

 

 

 

[Guest Mad Dave]

Cralis,

 

All the info you will need for your exams etc. is in the books you will be supplied with. I reckon one of the most important things you should consider is how you get along with / relate to the instructor(s) that will be teaching you. I found having someone that is easy to get along with, and who can clearly explain things to you (so that you understand it fully) is the most important thing, especially since you are paying by the hour to be taught.

 

Dave

 

 

[sain]

I imagine the ground prices are cost for the lessons if you have them. You'll have to pay the RA-Aus membership wherever your learning. The price is $160/year which is pretty cheap. As well as your student/pilot certificate You also get a subscription to the recreational aviation australia magazine. Other includes are a logbook and the Ops and Technical manuals on CD.

 

Personally I decided to go the self-taught approach to the theory, with lots-o-questions to the instructor as necessary. mind you I read a loooooot of material.

 

A great starting place is the RA-Aus site, specifically the ground school (theory) section:

 

Flight theory contents

 

I found this generally more helpful than a lot of the other texts available.

 

The BAK book in particular had a bunch of errors (might have just been the revision I had), but they were pretty easy to notice and quite funny sometimes.

 

You may also find: Learn to fly helpful.

 

When your talking to the places you probably want to find out how much a TIF (or trial instruction flight) is - its normally about 30-40 minutes long and cheaper than a normal lesson. Basically long enough to get a feel for the instructor.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

$33/hour ground, and he thinks I'd need around 10 minutes for flight.

When I did my training they didn't charge for pre-flight briefings. Ground schooling was intended to prepare you for theory exams, not practical sessions. This sounds like he is going to charge you for sitting there and listening while he says, "Today we will go out and do some climbing and descending turns...."

 

 

[motzartmerv]

You should get a 10-15 minute ground pre-flight briefing included in the cost, and the same for a post flight.

 

The ground schooling price you mentioned seems a bit steep. But remeber, you can study on your own as others have said, the ground schooling subjects should be left untill you have studied lots yourself and find areas of difficulty, its not uncommon for people to have no groundschooling at all, while others need a fair bit fed to them. Evryones different.

 

Ask to have the straight and level long brief as early as you can, as this brieffing introduces lots of the concepts that having a good understanding of will help you get a grip on whats happening.

 

I recomend all my students have the straight and level brief and the stalling brief, and then any others later down the track they think they might need to get a better understanding.

 

Learning in the Jab will be a big help to you later on should you wish to fly something else, the skills needed in the jab set you up nicely to convert to most other types quite easily. Learning in a docile acft is fine and will get you there (licence) quicker, but, having a good skill set will diffinatly help you down the track.

 

Don't get to involved on the sim, by all means use it to satisfy the the itch and practise the basics like PAT (power attitude trim) and ATP(attitude power trim) but useing the time to study the theory will help you more i feel. As others have said, simulators just aren't realistic enough. For instance, i can quite easily fly IFR from sydeney to brisbane in a King air (on the sim) but if i was to try that in real life in any acft id end up in the accident and incident thread on this forum quick smart.

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest Cralis]

Thanks guys.

 

I took a quick look at the links Sain sent. Is that quite advanced stuff? 90% I understand. Then I hit the word, 'Moment and Couples' with regards drag, lift etc. Wow! It linked to an explination, but... it shot way over my head. I had NO idea what it was talking about. It's things like that I'll need explained to me.

 

FS is a game now. :) I won't reference it anymore. I'll play with it, but will know in my head that - it's just a game.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Personally I think you are better off hitting the books. Doesn't matter whether you use the ATC stuff or Bob Tait (or some other comparable material for that matter) but it will contain everything you need. Furthermore it will prepare you for the PPL exams not just RAA. This way you can sit the full cyber exams (if you want to) which are accepted by the RAA and then you are free of the need to do more theory exams if you decide to go on to the full PPL at a later date (which you have already hinted at).

 

This is what I would suggest:

 

- Talk to different schools to get an idea of what is involved. Find one that will allow you to progress to PPL and count your RAA hours (RAA hours are acceptable but some schools won't count them nonetheless)

 

- Grab some decent theory books and study hard. Learn how to read the AIPs, CARs and CAOs - you WILL need to know this stuff if you do the PPL exams.

 

- Go flying while you study! This will help reinforce your knowledge, especially in the early days when you are doing your BAK stuff.

 

- Ask questions. Don't be afraid to use the instructors and their knowledge. They are there to help and if they are unhelpful then it looks like you have chosen a bad school, change if necessary!

 

- Have fun!!!

 

 

[Guest Cralis]

This is what I would suggest:- Talk to different schools to get an idea of what is involved. Find one that will allow you to progress to PPL and count your RAA hours (RAA hours are acceptable but some schools won't count them nonetheless)

This, I have completed. :) However, I asked the CFI about a later conversion to PPL, and he said that these hours are usable for the PPL, and all schools who do the PPL training (They don't) legally must recognise them. They grabbed some text from the Aussie govorning body, and it was highlighted in yellow, and it stated that these hours can be used towards a PPL. Was I/they misunderstanding something? According to them, I can go to any PPL school, and they must recognise the RA hours...

 

With regards the Fly while you study: What I am going to do is buy the red pack of books the school uses. I have a few weeks before I start, so in that time, I will read what I can slowly, as they say they do the lessons as the book goes. So, if I can cover the first 3 lessons before lesson one, I'll have a head start. (Sound OK?). But when you say, 'Fly while you learn', you mean take lessons, right, which will count towards my RA hours?

 

PS: Lift = CL × ½rV² × S :ah_oh:

 

 

[Guest airsick]

You are right, they are bound legally to recognise the hours but they can try to force you to do things over again. Recently someone here was saying they went to a school with their pilots certificate and was told they had to do some ridiculous amount of flying just to get to GFPT. Regardless of what the law says there are some that will try to take advantage of you. Just be careful!

 

There is nothing wrong with studying up front and trying to get ahead. Some do all of their theory before they touch the plane while others do it alongside their flying. You'll know what's best for you.

 

PS. Now explain each co-efficient. :)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Lol..ok.. its putting the cart before the horse a bit, but i'll try explaining it (the moment question) to you (will be difficult in text, but im bored (having the day off due no babysitter...gggrrrll) so i'll try my best

 

A moment is simply the turning effect of a force.

 

A force is a push or a pull.

 

So imagine a sea saw. With 2 people of equal weight sitting on each end the sea saw would be said to be in balance, the central pivot point could be refered to as the centre of gravity. The seasaw would TURN about the centre of gravity, so any weight added to the sesaw would have a TURNING effect.

 

The moment or TURNING effect would also be equall on both sides.

 

Now imagine one of the people decided to move closer to the middle of the sea saw (splinters in the bum). Now the seasaw would be out of balance and would tip towards the guy who didnt move and was still sitting on the end. It would rotate or turn around the centre of gravity still (becasue it is a fixed point on a seasaw).

 

Why does that happen??

 

To put it simply, the amount of weight acting to pull the seasaw down reduces as guy gets closer to the middle (centre of gravity) on his side.

 

We can simply multiply the guys weight by the distance from the centre he is and get a basic measurment of the turning effect.

 

So both guys weigh 80 kilos

 

They are both 2 meters from the middle.

 

So 80x2= 160

 

Because we multiplied weight by meters the answer is 160 kilogram meters.

 

Now, while they are both at equal distance (2 meters) from the middle there is equal force pulling at each end of the seasaw, but remeber one guy got splinters and moved towards the middle. Lets say he moved 1 meter closer, so now on his side there is only 80 kilos x 1 meter (80 kilogram meters) acting on his side. Because the other guys end is still experiancing 160 kilo meters of force it tips towards his side..

 

Now imagine sticking an aeroplane engine on the seasaw.

 

Now, both guys still want to ride the seasaw, so what are we to do??

 

Lets say the engine weighs 320 kilo's.

 

Both guys sit on one end, and we put the engine on the other end. What happens, well, lets do the maths and find out..

 

Remeber we need to know how much force is acting on each end, or a better way to put it is, whats the turning effect (moment) on each end??

 

So, the engine is 320 kilos and 2 meters from the middle.. so, 320x2= 640 kilo/meters.

 

The guys combined weight is 160 kilos and they are 2 meters from the middle, so, 160x2=320 kilo meters

 

So on one end we have a moment of 640 kilo meters of force (moment)

 

And on the other we have 320 kilo meters of force.

 

Obviously the seasaw will tip towards the side with the acft engine on it.

 

It wont be in balance and these 2 guys are left hanging there in the air.

 

So, what can we do??..we cant reduce the amount of weight in the engine, but we can try moving it closer to the middle..Lets say we put it 1 meter closer the the middle..so now we have a 320 kilo engine sitting 1 meter from the middle..Lets do the maths and find out what happens.

 

320 kilo's multiplied by the distance from the middle, 1 meter..320x1=320 kilogram meters. remeber there was 320 kilogram meters on the guys side.. so, hey presto, the moment (turning effect of the force) is equall on both sides and the seasaw is in balance.

 

This is basically what they are talking about, obviously its a bit more involved when talking about an aircraft because the center if gravity is not fixed, it will move around as we add weight to the acft.. But its still the same priciple, we multiply the weight(people baggage fuel etc) by the distance from a fixed point and get a number. Its not kilo gram meters, its in kilogram inches or pound inches. We add all these numbers together and find out if the moment or turning effect falls within limits and wont tip the plane over (Basically) becasue we want the acft to remain balanced.

 

cheers, hope this makes sence..

 

 

[Guest Cralis]

Fantastic. Thanks for that.

 

Why didn't they say that in the first place??

 

(What a weird name though... 'Moment'...)

 

 

[Guest Cralis]

Oh bugger. Spanner in the works. Need advice.

 

I just noticed another school at Caboolture.

 

Pro-Sky Caboolture

 

So I called, and spoke to the main guy there, who sounded quite good. I asked for costs, and he said $165/hour flight, no charge for pre and post flight or exam time. Wow. Sounds pretty good. I know what people will say now. 'Don't go for the cheapest', but what I liked was when I asked how long a flight lesson was, he said you could fly for an hour, but budget on 3 hours of time at the field... one for pre and one for post flight. Now that sounded interesting...

 

So, questions would be: Has anyone heard of them? They fly the Tecnam (Echo?). Is that an OK aircraft to learn in? Better/worse/equal to the Jab160? Saftey?

 

They use the same set of book as the other one I was thinking of - so I'm going to order those online and get reading.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

I can't comment on the Tecnam, other than they do seem reasonably popular.

 

But in case you didn't realise, this is how hours you are paying for (and put in your log book) are counted: the aircraft has a meter that counts the number of hours that it has been running. Increases in this are rounded to 1/10th of an hour so that if you book an hour but conditions change and go back in you may only pay 0.7 * 165 = $115.50. Similarly, if you stay out longer, you pay more.

 

Some schools work on an "air switch", where the meter does not start running until you do 30 knots or more, but this is rare. And another possibility is the clock running off the master switch, so you start paying a few minutes before the engine starts.

 

Expect to often wait around a bit before your instructor becomes available, the plane you are supposed to use comes back from a previous session, the weather clears, etc. Clearing up 2.5-3 hours of your day for 1 hours flying time is probably a reasonable expectation to set for the missus! ;-)

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I don't know anything about this mob but on the surface they sound pretty good. 3 hours for an hours worth of flying sounds reasonable to me. There would normally be a preflight briefing, aircraft preflight/fuelling etc, debriefing, filling in log books, paying and so forth. 3 hours will pass in no time.

 

I love the Tecnams as far as flying goes. Good stable plane, easy to fly, good all rounder.

 

Sounds to me like you're onto a winner. Others might have more info...

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Hello again, I had a friend who trained with Pro sky he was pretty happy with them he ended up doing his PPL somewhere else and is now flying Turbine Skydive planes. The Tecnam is a nice plane plenty of power, pretty roomy and pretty easy to fly I can't compare to the Jab as I'm still yet to fly one.

 

It might be worth going and having a TIF with Pro Sky just to compair I know it seems like a waste of money as you've already done one but its not! You still log the time and you get to compare apples with apples that way.

 

Cheers

 

Adam

 

 

[Flyer]

Thats not a bad idea that Adam puts forward re the TIF.

 

From what I've heard of the Tecnam they are a very nice plane.

 

I must admit that I'm not a huge fan of the rotax 912 (tecnam is equipped with a 912) for no other reason that I just dont like the sound of the rotax....just sounds far too busy for me. :confused:

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I must admit that I'm not a huge fan of the rotax 912 (tecnam is equipped with a 912) for no other reason that I just dont like the sound of the rotax....just sounds far too busy for me.

I'd put faith in the old Rotax before a Jab engine. You hear of a lot more Jab failures than Rotax...

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Ha Ha airsick I was just thinking the same thing! But they are both good engines are far as I know. Not something a perspective student needs to think about. If I had my way the only thing I'd fly behind is a good old Pratt (but they are alittle big for ultralights although 450 horses on a thruster could be fun)

 

 

[Flyer]

Nothing wrong with the Rotax at all. Just dont enjoy the sound...too busy.

 

Doesn't stop me flying rotax powered planes though.

 

Thought I'd add a couple of photos from last wednesdays flight...

 

Just as an addition, I used the Trevor Thom books for all of my PPL studies. Clear concise and easy to understand..even for a nuffer like me. Managed to pass my PPL theory with home study only and a few choice questions thrown at my instructors from time to time...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Ahh the old YYRM.

 

My old stomping ground and where I was born. (not at the airport though)

 

 

[Tomo]

G'day Cralis, Just thought I'd let you know about a book that I got... It's called "PPL" 'A Practical Book About Flying Safely' By JIM DAVIS (anyone else out there heard of it?)

 

It's a great book for explaining everything clearly and simply, (a bit like like Mr. Motzartmerv) he uses good decriptions:big_grin:... I don't think it can be used as a book for the exams though, but then again RAA is not PPL so it just might be able to-be:laugh:

 

But nevertheless It's a great book and well worth a look at, he talks about everything from finding a flying school, and 'what makes an aeroplane fly', 'In the Air', 'The aeroplane itself', 'The sky/weather', 'Navigation', 'Regulations', 'Radio', 'Human performance', 'Ops & performance', and even a section of bush survival!

 

I particulaly like the Navagation section, he explains the 'whirly wheel', reading maps and everything else required to get you "THERE" etc... so simply:thumb_up:

 

His website is www.jimdavis.com.au or you can order it from Bunbury Flying School, Ph. 08 9725 4145, email [email protected] well worth a look if you got time.....

 

Jim Davis him self has 10,000hrs training both civil and military pilots + 4000hrs doing charter, corporate flying, aerial photography, survey and sky writing, low level aerobatics, crazy flying and pylon razing........... He's got a flying school in Port Alfred, on South Africa's south east coast, with 25odd aircraft and 130staff....

 

Beter let you get your breath now:laugh:

 

Hope I'm a bit of a help, not a hindrance:sad:

 

Cheers, Tom