BFR in a Gazelle. Where's my Cheetah?????

[Bigglesworth]

I just did my BFR in a Gazelle (and passed)

 

Now, I was trained and got my license on a gazelle, and I used to love them, and thought they had good handling compared to a C150. But since then it has been all the Cheetah, and before that, a bit of a Sportstar, and a GA Grumman Tiger.

 

For starters, where the h**l does the power go? Thats a 100HP motor isn't it? It doesn't climb, it doesn't cruise, it does't accelerate down the runway......

 

It was hard to get 500fpm with 30L fuel and 2 light built people, the Cheetah gets over 1000fpm with one and full fuel. And thats averaged over 2 minutes, with a timer and altimeter. And 1000 is conservative.

 

As for going somewhere...... I mean, at the moment the Cheetah has a climb prop which slows it down a bit, but 90+ indicated at 5000ft isn't too bad, and that means in 5 minutes, at 2750 rpm, the speed did not go below 90. It went up to 95 or higher, but I say 90 because I am honest.

 

But the Gazelle..... is it moving? it needs to be pushed to get over 60 IAS. at 3000ft

 

I mean it does it, but doesn't like it.

 

And then descent... like a rock, we did a glide in approach, into wind. And I must admit I stuffed up bad, we wouldn't have made it.

 

Instructor went to show me how to do it, he did it, but aiming to 1/3 and hitting the start.... I got it eventually, but I swear the Cheetah would have overshot totally...

 

And landing, set at 50kts, and no manouverability (not that there ever is much) and it hits the ground. No amount of rounding will help, and it needs like full power to smooth it out.

 

Cheetah, it needs holding off from 50 back to 30kts, and is responsive the whole time.

 

I can fly it at 35 straight and level, could go slower, but then it is climbing.

 

Now before you:ban me please:, I don't have a financial interest in selling Cheetahs, and have always loved Gazelles.

 

I just was amazed how much of a non-performer it is.

 

I think everyone who has learnt on a Gazelle (and is a Jab similar? I guess it would be, but haven't flown one) should go out and clock up a couple of hours in a REAL plane. A sportstar or similar would do. But do yourself a real treat, find a Cheetah and get a flight in that:).

 

They're a bit harder to fly in some ways (not many), but it is soooooo worth it.

 

I have registered for Avalon as a special interest aircraft, she really is...:heart::heart::heart:

 

 

[Guest brentc]

The Gazelle is 80 HP which explains some of the problems that you have identified, but then again a standard Jabiru is only around 80-85 !

 

 

[Bigglesworth]

Oh well, its equal then, but its still a lame duck. To think I used to be in love with the one I learnt in.

 

Definately an ex now....:)

 

 

[Admin]

Bigglesworth

 

I think you may be forgetting one very important thing about the Gazelle - how many hrs have you had in one and how many crashes have you had in one as you have crashed your Cheetah twice already.

 

There are Gazelles and there are Gazelles - generally they are not a performer but I get 80 knots max out of mine and many instructors at training schools comment that mine performs much better then their own. BUT, it is a safe and easy to fly aircraft and really only designed for local flights/training. They are such a safe aircraft.

 

The other important thing is that not all people like to fly the same way as others do. Personally I am a long distance cruiser type of guy so give me a performance machine any day but then there are times when I also just like to fly with no destination or time frame in mind - the Gazelle really makes me feel great in being able to do that.

 

When I had my CT I would say to people, 'If I want to fly some where I will fly the CT, If I just want to do some flying, just to get up there into the sky and fly, I would fly the Gazelle".

 

Every type of aircraft not only provides us the ability to leave terrafirma and just FLY but they all offer something great to someone

 

 

[bilby54]

There was an old saying about the earlier U/L trainers that went along the lines of "They are easy to fly but a challenge to fly accurately"

 

Your description of the landing hold off tends to make me think that the aircraft got you, not the other way roundi_dunno

 

Horses for courses.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Skyhog]

If you own and fly a Cheetah,why did you do the BFR in a Gazelle?Isn't there a reg about recency on type and BFR's,or are you still flying off your 25hrs on the Cheetah?

 

 

[Bigglesworth]

As I said, I still hold a Gazelle in high esteem,

 

And as yet I haven't taken passengers in the Cheetah because I haven't wanted to/haven't even got some upholstery. So I did it in the club plane. Besides, how would I have got the Cheetah to the club, its at Frogs Hollow and my license ran out a while back.

 

I'm not ranting about a dud plane, a Gazelle is an excellent plane, and it sure has its place, but I think Ian's must have a better prop, or something.

 

I was just so surprised in the difference that I had to comment on it. And really, I do think a lot of pilots would benefit from being flying a range of aircraft and knowing what they are like.

 

Peace

 

 

[storchy neil]

bigglesworth flying a gazelle to perth and back would not be in your book neil

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Lol. dude...comparing a gazelle to a cheetah?? thats joke, isn't it?? your havin us on...surely..

 

50 kts approach in a gazelle?? and you wonder why you can't arrest the sink.. best glide is 55, 50 kts is short field, and as usual in a short field there isn't much of a roundout..

 

Can you trim the cheetah out in a 45 deg bank level turn and take ya hand and feat away and have a game of cards??

 

And as for the jab comment...well...now ya have my backhairs up.. To say we should try flying a real aeroplane..well, evryone thats never flown one says that, and then they jump in and i have to spend 2 hours teaching them how to flair the aeroplane..

 

The jabs do lack climb performance, ill give you that.. but believe me they are very much a real acft.. Ive seen many a "real" pilot humbled by the jab mate..:thumb_up:

 

 

[Bigglesworth]

Lol. dude... 50 kts approach in a gazelle?? and you wonder why you can't arrest the sink.. best glide is 55, 50 kts is short field, and as usual in a short field there isn't much of a roundout..Can you trim the cheetah out in a 45 deg bank level turn and take ya hand and feat away and have a game of cards??

And as for the jab comment...well...now ya have my backhairs up.. To say we should try flying a real aeroplane..well, evryone thats never flown one says that, and then they jump in and i have to spend 2 hours teaching them how to flair the aeroplane..

 

The jabs do lack climb performance, ill give you that.. but believe me they are very much a real acft.. Ive seen many a "real" pilot humbled by the jab mate..:thumb_up:

50Kts, I wasn't looking too hard, yeah it would have been 55-60 approach, then a bit of flare to 50, and "Dude, where's my input?"

 

I used to fly them, so once upon a time I was happy with them. And they are still a good plane, I was just commenting on how the Cheetah has such a wide speed range, and the Gazelle...

 

45 degree turn and cards? I'll try it next time, but I think I can, in one direction anyway:)

 

I will admit that it is a bit uneven, I don't know if it is prop wash, or my build, but turns are more stable to the left than right. Not much, but one way needs/wants rudder to get out.

 

As for Jabs, if you say they are good, I won't say any different since I haven't flown one. I will have to soon, I do want to know what they are like. And it may well take me 2 hours to flare it properly, but doesn't that just mean they are a harder plane to fly?

 

I'll find out someday.

 

BTW, I could probably humble a few racing car drivers with my ute on the dirt, it still doesn't mean it is a sports car.:pig:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Im a bit different to most, i think the harder to fly the better it is for training.. The idea is we want to train pilots, not train people how to fly.. A while ago i got checked out in a cherokee 180.. I was s bit worried about it as id never flown anything "heavy" (as apposed to an raa acft).. after the first cct i chuckled loudly to the chief.. How do they give licences in this thing??

 

I never said you'd take 2 hours to learn the flair in a jab. I wouldn't be so pretencious as to make judgments on someones flying ability's having never flown with them..

 

I was mainly referring to "ga" guys who lump poo on jabs and RAA acft, and then have all the trouble in the world flying them because the acft they learned on were simply to easy to fly..

 

BUT, i recently took IanR for a checkride in the 160, and he had never flown an RAA acft before and he flew it perfectly.. He has experiance in many types and that really showed. He greased it on first go. I was more then impressed.. But on the whole "real" (ga) pilots have a lot of trouble..

 

Apples and oranges mate, thats what i was sortof getting at.. The Gazelle is a great little trainer.. And the cheetah may well be a fantastic tourer.. I think the Jabs are a good comprimise simply because they are more difficult to fly, and you can get some great performance out of them.

 

ps, i hope your referring to a holden ute and not a ford??

 

 

[Bigglesworth]

Who won Bathurst? Ford country here, on a quiet day you can hear the Holden's rusting:laugh:

 

I agree totally, each plane has its good points, bad points, and individualities.

 

I was just hoping to be back with an old friend, only to find she wasn't what I remembered at all, outclassed in about everything that I find important. (handling, manouverability at all speeds, climb, speed, even visibility...)

 

I'll have to take you for a fly someday, and we'll see.

 

And maybe I'll fly a Jab someday, there must be something good about them.....

 

 

[planedriver]

Someone very knowledgeable once said to me, that we have 2 ears and 1 mouth and consequently, should do twice as much listening, as we do talking, to stay out of trouble.

 

I think that might have been wise information;)

 

 

[Admin]

Im a bit different to most, i think the harder to fly the better it is for training.. The idea is we want to train pilots, not train people how to fly

I started learning in a LSA Jab at Point Cook - it was windy and I felt it was to hard and I wasn't enjoying it - with the aircraft type and the wind I wasn't learning to fly, just fighting the aircraft and wind and not enjoying it. The Jab was a proper aircraft to me then, the unlearned noobe as it had flaps so it must have been a real aircraft compared to the Gazelle.

I was about to give learning to fly away as a big joke when my wife convinced my to try elsewhere in an easier aircraft. I went to Shepparton and started in the Gazelle - after the 1st hour I was having fun - it was great - I kept going and then after I got my certificate I went back to Pt Cook and mastered the Jab and the windier conditions. Later I then became certified in the CT.

 

If you stick with the word "Fun" and matching the aircraft/instructor/location to the student's capabilities (not their wants or the instructor's wants) many students may continue on learning to fly and it WILL be a natural progression for the student to get into harder aircraft becoming better pilots but if they don't then they will still enjoy flying recreational aircraft in an easier one but still flying properly if they have just simply been instructed correctly.

 

:big_grin:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ian, thats a good point..And thats why we try to make sure that early students only fly in good conditions, as little wind as possible. Granted that may be a bit diffucult in places where the wind just never stops,but early mornings are a good time.

 

When i said the more difficult an acft the better i should have said within reason, i think the LSA's are a bit to much in anything but perfect conditions for newbies. They are twitchy flighty litttle suckers..And your right, fun is the name of the game..

 

you'll make a good instructor, i just don't know where your gunna find the time;)..hows the new job going??

 

cheeers

 

ps, bigglsworth.. Its easy to see the problems with fords, if you look on the front of the bonnet they have a little blue circle around it:laugh:....oh, and speaking of training, who trained Lownesy?? he will always be a traitor in my eyes..

 

 

[Tomo]

ps, bigglsworth.. Its easy to see the problems with fords, if you look on the front of the bonnet they have a little blue circle around it:laugh:....

And the letters for.... "Fix Or Repair Daily" ..... "Found On Rubbish Dumps" ..... And then back to front...... "Driver Returns On Foot" ........ And Lot's more...

 

Ford Fans, I just couldn't help it:helmet: Even if they did win the Bathurst I still like Holdens:big_grin:

 

 

[Tomo]

And the letters for.... "Fix Or Repair Daily" ..... "Found On Rubbish Dumps" ..... And then back to front...... "Driver Returns On Foot" ........ And Lot's more... Ford Fans, I just couldn't help it:helmet: Even if they did win the Bathurst I still like Holdens:big_grin:

And I just thought about a Holden one someone told me one day.......

 

"Heaps Of Low Down Engine Noise" .... And I said, Yeah and don't you just love the sound of a powerful V8 with through exhausts:laugh:

 

 

[sain]

I fly in a Gazelle and absolutely love it, but its a case of horses for courses - you wouldn't want to take long distance trips in one unless you've got plenty of time. On my nav test we were flying pretty much straight along above a highway after a divert and I was proud to report to the instructor that we were slowly overtaking a motorhome. She was a little suprised, but gave a hearty cheer. The gazelle at goulburn cruises at 65-70kts, but thats without its pants on. Apparantly having all the fairings and such on improves things quite a lot.

 

I've also flown a couple of GA aircraft (Piper Warrior and Cherokee), and yes they climb better and cruise faster but they arn't anywhere near as much FUN to fly.

 

 

[Chird65]

OK so if 60 knots is 111 kph was that motor home flying? .

 

We tend to forget that even at 40knots we are doing better than the average car, if more detinations had landing areas flying would be much more efficient.

 

 

[sain]

Its a 110 zone on that highway, and we had about 8 kts of headwind wind (i think - don't have the flight plan in front of me).

 

 

[Bigglesworth]

Alright, I give up,

 

I'm talking to a lot of Holden drivers and Gazelle pilots.

 

You win the argument; we won Bathurst, and whatever can be won in a plane :)

 

Just do yourself a favour one day: drive an xr6turbo on a speedway (I haven't got to yet, had a BA xr8 on the highway once....) and fly something where you can get into a lot of trouble quickly, and get out just as fast.

 

I'm talking FUN factor.......

 

 

[skybum]

:laugh:touchy subject:laugh:

 

 

[Guest ROM]

Sometimes you just have to laugh.

 

Seen on the back window of a Commodore hoon car.

 

God created s--t

 

Ford put wheels on it!

 

 

[Bigglesworth]

Does this mean we now have 2 threads dedicated to debating whether Holden is capable of being compared to the mighty Ford?

 

That bumper sticker is just a cheap imitation, the real deal has the positions in their proper place, and Holden is a turd on wheels.

 

Which is the way God meant it, all this talk of equality... why can't these Holden people just accept that they were created the weaker species?

 

:hittinghead::pig:

 

 

[skydog]

Jab vs Gaz vs anything.

 

I started in a GAZELLE at Pt Cook and loved it to learn in, absolutely perfect plane to get your license in low hours and cheaply compared to GA and the Jabirus. Why cheaper than the JABIRUS, because they are so much harder to fly and land. Most students take 15 hours to go solo! thats expensive flying even at RAA aircraft prices dual.

 

It may be good for the student to master a plane like the Jab but good for the instructors and schools to get extra hours it takes and income as well. I always recommend people learn in an easier plane first because of that money factor.

 

I went solo in 4.5 hrs in the GAZELLE then to obtain my GA license all I had to do was 5 hours conversion in a Warrior. CHEAP way to go and fun. I then started flying the JABIRU, took me 4.5 hrs to go solo in that!!! wow I thought I was an OK pilot but trying to master the Jab bought me back down to earth with a thud literally.Twitchy as... and in XW, well you have to work hard.

 

I have about 50 hours in Jabs now and believe if you can fly a jab you can fly most SE aircraft. Jumping back into C172 and Warriors is like flying a truck. Since then I have flown mostly GA but always go back and fly the JAB every month or so because it forces me to fly well.

 

Total GA pilots tend to pooh pooh the Jab until they get in and try and land it. Sure brings them back to earth too in more ways than one.

 

Agree about different horses for different courses though.