Do RAA Hrs count towards CPL

[Admin]

A thread on this topic was started by JetGirl and I accidently deleted the entire thread instead of just a couple of posts whilst in the course of moderating the thread.

 

My sincerest apologies Jetgirl.

 

So, does anyone have any "real" comments about the "right" answer to this question as it seems to come down to a yes and no - yes the hours count but only if the hours are in a VH registered aircraft so it defeats the whole RA-Aus hours question - this is what I have taken to be the answer - am I wrong - your thoughts???

 

 

[Guest Vigilant]

Ian, I thought it got tothe stage that as RAA registered aircraft were recognised aircraft and any RAA aircraft registered VH - LSA would definitely count. Correct me if I am wrong guys

 

Cheers Stuart

 

 

[Guest In-cog-neto]

Hello Everybody,

 

I have done a fair bit of research on this topic by reading the regs, talking to people in CLARC and a variety of ATOs, even tried the RAA themselves for which theyare yet to respond.

 

This is want I have discovered. The RAA hours count towards the PPL and the ATPL because it isRecognised flight time. Although I think RAA hours should count towards a CPL because, lets face it, it is still aeronautical expierencein aircraft that do require more manipulative skills(stick and rudder). CAR 2 don't have Group A Ultralight listed as a Recognised Aircraft therefore, the hours cannot contribute.

 

I would dearly love to be proven wrong, but I wantto see iton paper in the regs. Not opinion or hearsay because even ATOs have gotthis wrong in the past.

 

your thoughts.

 

In-cog-neto

 

 

[Wilfred]

I got an email, last year,from CASA that states that RAA hours count towards PPL (both instrument and x country) provided the aircraft is suitably equipped with flight instruments for IMC eg A/H, alt, VSI etc. RAA hours do not count towards CPL.

 

The email address is below so send him your question, and get the right answer form the horses mouth so to speak.

 

They seem to be quite prompt and helpfull with their replies.

 

Miles Harris

 

Flight Crew Licencing

 

Canberra

 

CASA Australia

 

[email protected]

 

 

[Guest In-cog-neto]

Hi Turtle,

 

Spoke to Miles a few weeks ago, very helpful. I think the RAA should write a operational bulletin stating the facts for all FTFs. Last thing people need to hear from an ATO is "sorry I can'tdo your test because you fall short of the minimum exp. required". Give it time and common sense may provail.

 

Kind regards Darren (In-cog-neto) In-cog-neto

 

 

[blueline]

Hi Turtle/Incogneto,

 

CAR's definition section define what is "recognised flight time" and it includes all kinds of things including RAA aircraft.

 

There is no requirement for the aircraft to have AH DH or VSI - lots of GA registered aircraft don't have these instruments, nor are they required. The only time these instruments would be needed would be if you wanted to log instrument time (even then it could be done "limited panel") or on the test.

 

I personally logged about 100 hours of ultralight time that I used towards my CPL........so it has been accepted in the past.

 

Look up the definition section of the CARs "recognised flight time". Clearly the intention of the regs is that ultralight time counts.

 

Would be interested to hear if CASA now intend to change there thinking on this subject.....................

 

 

[Guest In-cog-neto]

Blueline, talk to Miles at CASA! Read the CAR 5.115, there is a difference between Recognised Aircraft and Recognised flight time.

 

Show me in the Regs. Just because the ATO who did your test let youthrough doesn't mean he was right! Ask PD for his opinion.

 

Yes the Ultralight time counts, but that is for the issue of a PPL and ATPL, not CPL. Why they don't include it is beyond me, but thats the regs.

 

In-cog-neto

 

P.S. CASA did'nt make me a CP and soon to be ATO for me good looks and charming personality In-cog-neto

 

 

[Guest Jetgirl]

Not much point shooting the messenger.

 

Why would CASA say they do not if they do?

 

JG

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

I posted on this before it got deleted!

 

To obtain a CPL you need 200 hours-

 

100 Hours in a RECOGNISED aircraft (Recreational)

 

100 Hours in a REGISTERED aircrat (GA)

 

ATPL 1,500 hours

 

750 Hours in a RECOGNISED aircraft (Recreational)

 

750 Hours in a REGISTERED aircraft (GA)

 

Therefore, YES, the hours DO count.

 

As I said previously, this is why literally dozens of GA Commercial Instructors have now got their RA-Aus Instructor Ratings - to short-tracktheir career to 747's.

 

Perhaps the three of you who are ALL located in Ballarat should get together for a round table discussion on this!

 

CASA employees are exactly that (employees). They are NOT the rule makers. They merely INTERPRET the rules in the same way that we do. People can and do make mistakes in their intrepretations and there will always be variations. If you dispute what they say, ask for te matter to be put through to their team leaders. I've had many many different answers on my queries with them and in the end found the truth!

 

 

[Admin]

RIGHT - there is in this thread and the previous one a lot of people's opinions, this person said this, that person said that etc etc etc.

 

Whilst opinions are very much welcomed here, terms such as "you are wrong" or "go and check again" etc or challenging each other are not welcomed. Posts should always be done with a smile and read with a smile - we are here to help each other not talk down to each other.

 

It is safe to say that the regs and even people from CASA are not exactly sure what is the right or wrong answer and all of this is bringing an unsavoury element to these forums in particular this thread - it seems everyone is an authority onthis clouded issue.

 

Any further posts in this thread will from now on need to have a reference to either a CASA representative's name oran explicit reference to a regulationotherwise the post will be deleted. If you wish to make a personal interpretation of a reg then write the reg out in your post and simply say "Personally I interpret this as......."

 

Now let's all get together and have fun

 

 

[Guest In-cog-neto]

I agree. In-cog-neto

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Here is thelink / infoin question that should pretty much answer everyone's question... I hope...

 

There are 2 parts to this. The first part (5.115)relates to those with existing experience and the second part relates to those who complete the course commercially.

 

<A name=para3.1822></A><A name=_Toc140899135>5.115 Aeronautical experience: persons other than commercially trained persons and helicopter pilots</A>

 

(1) For the purposes of subparagraph 5.104 (1) (f) (ii), the aeronautical experience of a person who is not covered by regulation 5.113 or 5.114 must consist of:

 

(a) at least 100 hours as pilot in command; and

 

(b) at least 100 hours of flight time in a registered aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane; and

 

© at least 20 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command of a registered aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane; and

 

(d) at least 10 hours of instrument flight time in a registered aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane.

 

(2) For the purposes of subregulation (1), the same flight time may be counted towards as many of paragraphs (1) (a), (b), © and (d) as describe the flight time.

 

(3) If a person complies with subregulation (1) by flying a total flight time of less than 200 hours, the person’s aeronautical experience for the purposes of subparagraph 5.104 (1) (f) (ii) must include a period of additional flight time equal to the difference between 200 hours and that total flight time.

 

(4) In this regulation:

 

additional flight time means recognised flight time as a pilot of any 1 or more of the following:

 

(a) a registered aeroplane;

 

(b) a recognised aeroplane;

 

© a helicopter;

 

(d) a gyroplane;

 

(e) a glider (other than a hang glider).

 

****************************************************

 

Commercial Course:

 

<A name=para3.1794></A><A name=_Toc140899133>5.113 Aeronautical experience: commercial (helicopter) pilots and air transport (helicopter) pilots</A>

 

(1) For the purposes of subparagraph 5.104 (1) (f) (ii), the aeronautical experience of a person who is not a commercially trained person but who holds a commercial pilot (helicopter) licence or an air transport pilot (helicopter) licence must consist of:

 

(a) at least 60 hours of flight time as a pilot of a registered aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane; and

 

(b) at least 10 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command of a registered aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane; and

 

© at least 10 hours of instrument flight time in a registered aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane.

 

(2) For the purposes of subregulation (1), the same flight time may be counted towards as many of paragraphs (1) (a), (b) and © as describe the flight time.

 

(3) If a person complies with subregulation (1) by flying a total flight time of less than 200 hours, the person’s aeronautical experience for the purposes of subparagraph 5.104 (1) (f) (ii) must include a period of additional flight time equal to the difference between 200 hours and that total flight time.

 

(4) In this regulation:

 

additional flight time means recognised flight time as a pilot of any 1 or more of the following:

 

(a) a registered aeroplane;

 

(b) a recognised aeroplane;

 

© a helicopter;

 

(d) a gyroplane;

 

(e) a glider (other than a hang glider).

 

ClemBrown

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Signed, sealed and delivered herein...

 

Following is the Commonwealth Interpretation of the Civil Aviation Regulations 1988 - REG 2 (defines recognised / registered, etc)

 

From:

 

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/car1988263/s2.html

 

<A name=recognised_flight_time></A>"recognised flight time" means flight time that is:

 

(e) in the case of flight time in a group A ultralight:

 

(i) flown by the holder of a pilot certificate, either before or after the certificate was issued to the holder, being a pilot certificate, other than a student certificate, issued by Recreational Aviation Australia Inc.; and

 

(ii) recorded in the holder’s logbook and certified by a member of Recreational Aviation Australia Inc. who is authorised by that body to certify flight time.

 

 

[Guest AusDarren]

To obtain a CPL you need 200 hours-

100 Hours in a RECOGNISED aircraft (Recreational)

 

100 Hours in a REGISTERED aircraft (GA)

This isn't quite right.

 

there is an "or" between those two.

 

And a Recognised Aeroplane is defined in the CAR definitions as

 

"means a powered aeroplane:

 

(a) that is on the register of Aircraft kept by a Contracting State; or

 

(b) that is operated by the Defence Force of Australia or of a contracting State;"

 

Its not recreational

 

However..

 

how you fly the other 100 hours Aeronautical experience is not specified.

 

http://casa.gov.au/download/act_regs/1988.pdf

 

Page 228

 

and for a Private licence Group A Ultralights (ie 3 Axis) are specifically mentioned as allowable experiance.

 

Regards,

 

AusDarren

 

 

[hihosland]

As I understand it any hours in ANY recognised (by CASA or an agency delegated by CASA) aircraft will count. But you can't log IFR hours in a non IFR aircraft.

 

 

 

to quote from a letter that I received re flight testing.

 

 

 

>>>>>>>>>

 

To answer your second question, yes you can do an Aeroplane Flight Review with a GA instructor in any aeroplane recognised and/or registered provided that the school's AOC reflects flying training as part of its authorisation and there are provisions in the organisations Operations Manual to capture this activity, a matter for you to discuss with the CFI of the flying school.

 

 

 

I hope this helps, your sincerely

 

 

 

Olivier J.E Grandjean

 

Flying Operations Inspector

 

Personnel Licensing Education and Training

 

CANBERRA ACT

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

From that I conclude that one could go from ab initio to full GA ticket without ever sitting in a VH registered aircraft provided that your instructor/examiner was licensed on both RAA and VH aircraft and was working for a school with the appropriate AOC..

 

David Hill

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Whilst you are a student under instruction prior to receipt of your pilot certificate then the instructor is PIC.

 

Mike

 

 

[hihosland]

Whilst you are a student under instruction prior to receipt of your pilot certificate then the instructor is PIC.Mike

which is why you need and instructor who is RAA and GA qualified and is working under the AOC of a school that entitles him/her to so instruct.

 

.

 

But for a BFR I think that the candidate is PIC although I am not sure if ICUS or not.

 

Davidh

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

snipBut for a BFR I think that the candidate is PIC although I am not sure if ICUS or not.

Davidh

And King in case like me the acronyms were hard to start with:

 

In Command Under Supervision = ICUS

 

So you log the command time but there is a "responsible adult" in the other seat.

 

Regards

 

Mike