lithium batteries

[Kyle Communications]

Damika has it spot on. I go away camping etc but usually take a heavy car battery to run the special inverter for the CPAP machine and it works great but in the Sav the weight restriction is a lot more dramatic so 1kg of batteries is much better than 12kg dead weight

 

 

[sfGnome]

At the risk of thread drift, I just have to share this... My PLB is (and has been for the last 3 months) in being serviced under warranty. Kannad won't replace it (2nd time it's died in the 2 years I've owned it - useless junk) and they insist on it being serviced by the approved centre instead. Problem is, they need a new battery for it, and - get this - the battery cannot be sent to Oz from France by air because it is classified as dangerous goods! This is the same battery that powers the PLB that I'm required by law to carry when I fly!

 

Talking about it with a LAME I know, he told me that they have the same problem with some aircraft radios - they can't send them by air, but they can install them in aircraft. 'Tis a wonderful world we live in.

 

 

[boingk]

Not to make light of a bad situation, Gnome, but that's part of the reason I bought Australian with my ELT/PLB. I know that should it fail or when I need a new battery I can just send it to the office in Sydney. Now... wonder what would happen if you bought a Chinese PLB? - boingk

 

 

[jetjr]

Just to clarify - we are talking Lithium IRON batteries??

 

I thought these had no such dangers as lithium ION with thermal runaway?

 

The 1kg backup battery sounds good, what sort of charger is required?

 

 

[mlpinaus]

Look up Shorai 12v 14 AH lithium iron on Google. They have a special charger to balance the internal cells. Don't seem to self discharge at all.

 

regards

 

Marcus

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yep there are 3 sorts of Li batteries. Li-Po, Li-ion and LiFePO4.

 

I have a $17 charger that knows about these 3 types. You have to select one of them.

 

On the Jabiru, I am just using the standard regulator (charger ) with a " protection board" which has been soldered on.

 

Getting away from the Jabiru, I have seen what could be thermal runaway with a Li-Po pack. There was a lot of smoke and a few cells got charred, but the whole pack didn't go up, luckily for the model plane.

 

Bruce

 

 

[Gentreau]

At the risk of thread drift, I just have to share this... My PLB is (and has been for the last 3 months) in being serviced under warranty. Kannad won't replace it (2nd time it's died in the 2 years I've owned it - useless junk) and they insist on it being serviced by the approved centre instead. Problem is, they need a new battery for it, and - get this - the battery cannot be sent to Oz from France by air because it is classified as dangerous goods! This is the same battery that powers the PLB that I'm required by law to carry when I fly! Talking about it with a LAME I know, he told me that they have the same problem with some aircraft radios - they can't send them by air, but they can install them in aircraft. 'Tis a wonderful world we live in.

Ever tried carrying a pilots lifejacket on a commercial flight ?

 

Same problem, you can take the jacket, but not the bottle of compressed air !

 

.

 

 

[JabSP6]

I did buy 2 packs and tested them out in parallel. This gave me a scare because the engine belted over so hard I worried about burning out the starter-motor.So now I am only using one pack and it still belts over. This makes the weight 1 kg plus the battery-box. The cranking voltage is 11 volts with the single lithium pack as opposed to 9 volts with the Odyssey.

The lithium obviously has a lot less internal resistance.

 

One of these packs would make a good booster setup if you have trouble starting on frosty mornings. Is that what a cpap is?

 

... Bruce

Hi Bruce

I am keen to talk to you more about the light weight battery option.

 

I have sent you a PM

 

Thanks

 

Andrew

 

(JabSP6)

 

 

[Gentreau]

We have a company close to home who are offering LiFePo batteries.

 

I wonder how they compare in performance and price to those available in Oz ... ?

 

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http://randkar.free.fr/fr/prbattdem.htm&act=url

 

P.S. 1 Euro = 1.26 AUD today

 

.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

LiFePO4 are also known as A123 batteries they first came out in Dewalt battery drill packs. I got rid of the Lipoly batteries we were using in our RC turbine aircraft when a friends was burnt to the ground while charging. We basically all went to A123 then at 20 bucks a batter and made our own packs up from single 2300 ma cells and also you need a good balance charger you don't need to balance charge them every time but I used to just as a matter of course.

 

I ordered one of the 4s2P 8400ma packs from Hobbyking the other day its on its way they tell me so hopefully will arrive by friday and I can try it out before Inglewood

 

 

[eightyknots]

LiFePO4 are also known as A123 batteries they first came out in Dewalt battery drill packs. I got rid of the Lipoly batteries we were using in our RC turbine aircraft when a friends was burnt to the ground while charging. We basically all went to A123 then at 20 bucks a batter and made our own packs up from single 2300 ma cells and also you need a good balance charger you don't need to balance charge them every time but I used to just as a matter of course.I ordered one of the 4s2P 8400ma packs from Hobbyking the other day its on its way they tell me so hopefully will arrive by friday and I can try it out before Inglewood

Are you seriously thinking of replacing the Pb-H2SO4 battery with a LiFePO4 battery in your Sav?

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

No Hank

 

I didnt use the acid battery that came in the kit I use a sealed AGM style sports machine battery 18 amp hour I think it was...it has been fantastic

 

The 8400 mah A123 battery it is for my CPAP machine to have in the tent with me. I am very happy with my 8.5kg battery now in the back of the Sav because she flys soooooo much better now. I got the 8400 ma battery from hobby king on friday so got it charged and setup for my Resmed auto set and I slept for 9 hrs on saturday night...long for me and my machine never missed a beat I wanted to see how long it would actually go until the CPAP stopped working and used it last night after I got home. It stopped 3 hrs into my sleep so it went for 12 hrs total use which I think is awesome. I will charge it from the battery in the Sav you do need a small special charger which I have anyway. The other side of this is I can also plug the 8400 ma battery direct into the anderson plug I have at the bottom of the plane where the old battery was for jumper starting the aircraft. The 8400 ma weighs only 1 kg so it has a lot of plusses for sure

 

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

It's 18 months now ( Feb 2012) since I first tried the LiFePO4 battery from Hobbyking and it's time for an update. Here's the story:

 

After finding out that one of the 8400mah packs had ample cranking power, I went back to the Odyssey until I got a "Protection Circuit Module for 4 cells LiFePO4 pack" from All-Battery.com. You can Google this up.

 

This was a bit of a disappointment when I got it because the by-pass current is only listed at 60ma, when I would have preferred a lot higher, say 200ma.

 

Anyway, I hard-wired this in and operated with this setup for over a year with no problems. This is with the ordinary Jabiru regulator which apparently is a tractor spare part.

 

It cranked over really well every time. The battery didn't explode or catch fire , but I have seen a story that an airliner had a fire and heard a rumor that a Colyaer may have had a fire.

 

Then one day after about 15 months, I left the master on and when I came back next week the battery was dead and couldn't be revived. Since I bought 2 of these batteries, the second one is now in the plane.

 

I'm planning to install a buzzer to help me avoid leaving the master on. To implement this I reckon I need to replace one of the mag switches from the existing 2 pole single throw to a 3 pole single-throw. The idea is for the buzzer to sound when the master is ON and that mag OFF.

 

Yes I know it shouldn't be necessary and I know that a strobe which is always on when the master is on would work too. I don't want the weight of the strobe and I don't think they are effective in broad daylight.

 

Maybe I'm the only person who leaves the master on once every 5 years or so.

 

regards, Bruce

 

 

[frank marriott]

Another simple option, keyed master. If you have to remove the keys to lock the aircraft then master must be off. (Assuming you lock the aircraft of course)

 

 

[AVOCET]

It's 18 months now ( Feb 2012) since I first tried the LiFePO4 battery from Hobbyking and it's time for an update. Here's the story:After finding out that one of the 8400mah packs had ample cranking power, I went back to the Odyssey until I got a "Protection Circuit Module for 4 cells LiFePO4 pack" from All-Battery.com. You can Google this up.

This was a bit of a disappointment when I got it because the by-pass current is only listed at 60ma, when I would have preferred a lot higher, say 200ma.

 

Anyway, I hard-wired this in and operated with this setup for over a year with no problems. This is with the ordinary Jabiru regulator which apparently is a tractor spare part.

 

It cranked over really well every time. The battery didn't explode or catch fire , but I have seen a story that an airliner had a fire and heard a rumor that a Colyaer may have had a fire.

 

Then one day after about 15 months, I left the master on and when I came back next week the battery was dead and couldn't be revived. Since I bought 2 of these batteries, the second one is now in the plane.

 

I'm planning to install a buzzer to help me avoid leaving the master on. To implement this I reckon I need to replace one of the mag switches from the existing 2 pole single throw to a 3 pole single-throw. The idea is for the buzzer to sound when the master is ON and that mag OFF.

 

Yes I know it shouldn't be necessary and I know that a strobe which is always on when the master is on would work too. I don't want the weight of the strobe and I don't think they are effective in broad daylight.

 

Maybe I'm the only person who leaves the master on once every 5 years or so.

 

regards, Bruce

Yea Bruce , your the only one that leaves your master switch on ,!?

 

Mike

 

 

 

[damkia]

It's 18 months now ( Feb 2012) since I first tried the LiFePO4 battery from Hobbyking and it's time for an update. Here's the story:After finding out that one of the 8400mah packs had ample cranking power, I went back to the Odyssey until I got a "Protection Circuit Module for 4 cells LiFePO4 pack" from All-Battery.com. You can Google this up.

This was a bit of a disappointment when I got it because the by-pass current is only listed at 60ma, when I would have preferred a lot higher, say 200ma.

 

Anyway, I hard-wired this in and operated with this setup for over a year with no problems. This is with the ordinary Jabiru regulator which apparently is a tractor spare part.

 

It cranked over really well every time. The battery didn't explode or catch fire , but I have seen a story that an airliner had a fire and heard a rumor that a Colyaer may have had a fire.

 

Then one day after about 15 months, I left the master on and when I came back next week the battery was dead and couldn't be revived. Since I bought 2 of these batteries, the second one is now in the plane.

 

I'm planning to install a buzzer to help me avoid leaving the master on. To implement this I reckon I need to replace one of the mag switches from the existing 2 pole single throw to a 3 pole single-throw. The idea is for the buzzer to sound when the master is ON and that mag OFF.

 

Yes I know it shouldn't be necessary and I know that a strobe which is always on when the master is on would work too. I don't want the weight of the strobe and I don't think they are effective in broad daylight.

 

Maybe I'm the only person who leaves the master on once every 5 years or so.

 

regards, Bruce

LiFePo's are the safest of the lithium based battery chemistries. The ones that caused the problems for Boeing were the Lithium Ion chemistry found in mobile phones and laptops. There are other less common chemistries in use such as lithium Cobalt and others - it's worth a Google to understand the differences.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Thanks guys, I didn't know they were lithium ion in that Boeing. And yes a keyed master switch would work well for me if I also had the car-keys on the same key-ring.

 

My early model Jab doesn't have keyed doors.

 

As for that Colyaer, it is only a rumor that there was a fire before the crash and even if there were, we don't know if the battery had anything to do with it.

 

... Bruce

 

 

[Thalass]

The batteries in the 787 are lithium-cobalt-oxide, which apparently at the time were the best available. LiPos have more energy, and can handle more cranking power, but have a fairly short life (~500 cycles?). Electric cars nowdays have lithuim-iron-phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries, which have less energy than LiPo but a much longer life (~5000 cycles). I suppose for an aircraft it's a matter of trading off more power for the weight, or longer life.

 

Still waiting for lithium-air cells!

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

thanks Thalass, I didn't know what those 787 batteries were.

 

I'm still working with the Hobbyking LiFePO4 battery, But I've found out that the protection board I bought was wrong for the job. It needs to work as an individual cell charger. ( thanks, Mark)

 

Here's my current plan:

 

The max charge voltage for a LiFe PO4 is 3.6 volts. Now you can buy a 3.6 volt zener diode. So how about "shorting" the individual cells with a 3.6 volt zener? The idea is that below 3.6 volts, the charging is normal, but when 3.6 volts is exceeded , the charge current bypasses through the zener for that cell.

 

Yes I know this is too easy and simple but why not?

 

regards, Bruce

 

hope the LiFe PO4 batteries are safe.

 

 

[Thalass]

There are plenty of threads about home-made LiFePO4 chargers on http://www.diyelectriccar.com/

 

With plenty of far more knowledgeable people than me to answer questions. :P

 

 

[horsefeathers]

I replaced my lead-acid battery in March with a LiFePO4 (Lithium IRON,Shorai brand) battery, running off a Rotax 582, with an approx 5kg weight saving.

 

To date, I've had zero issues with this battery, and have not had to ground charge the battery. From all my reading on the internet, it does seem to be a safe alternative to lead acid. The Rotax charging system is NOT the ideal way to charge these batteries, and I am currently looking at some system to provide an alternate inflight charging system.

 

I am not endorsing the use of lithium batteries, and personally will not use lithium ion/ lithium polymer batteries anywhere (after having a couple of RC batteries destroy themselves). I'm just adding my experiences to the general pool of info about this new technology.

 

 

[eightyknots]

I replaced my lead-acid battery in March with a LiFePO4 (Lithium IRON,Shorai brand) battery, running off a Rotax 582, with an approx 5kg weight saving.To date, I've had zero issues with this battery, and have not had to ground charge the battery. From all my reading on the internet, it does seem to be a safe alternative to lead acid. The Rotax charging system is NOT the ideal way to charge these batteries, and I am currently looking at some system to provide an alternate inflight charging system.

 

I am not endorsing the use of lithium batteries, and personally will not use lithium ion/ lithium polymer batteries anywhere (after having a couple of RC batteries destroy themselves). I'm just adding my experiences to the general pool of info about this new technology.

Many people get Lithium Ion and Lithium Iron mixed up.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

No wonder they get iron and ion mixed up. My worry is that a coroner or CASA will be similarly ignorant of batteries 101 and come up with ignorant rulings.

[Bruce Tuncks]

In the latest weekend herald sun insert, there was a story about a tasmanian 19reg Jabiru with a li-po battery which caught fire mid-air. Does anybody know about this?

[Thruster88]

13 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

In the latest weekend herald sun insert, there was a story about a tasmanian 19reg Jabiru with a li-po battery which caught fire mid-air. Does anybody know about this?

Occurred Oct 2018. I thought there was an ATSB investigation but VH-DJX is not showing up in a search.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-23/plane-crash-pilot-showing-signs-of-improvement/10412084

Edited November 13, 2021 by Thruster88