After a bit of info on LSA ;)

[Guest Rocko]

Heya all

 

Toying with getting another aircraft. Deciding whether to get a Savannah kit, or possibly a J120

 

Having built a kit before, I know what I can and cannot do with respects to maintenance, etc, with a kit aircraft.

 

However, the J120 is another matter. Obviously it's factory built. However, they say it's registered as RAA, without further specifics.

 

Now, I understand as LSA you can basically do nothing yourself. Is this the fact, or is it simplifying matters.

 

Grinz...I'd check out my tech manual, but it's been filed in my office somewhere, without trace ;)

 

So, would someone mind filling me in on some of the specifics? Can you install things like a gps or turn coord yourself? Is all maintenance, including routine stuff like oil changes, etc, L2 only? Anything else I should be aware of?

 

Obviously, I'll need to ask Jabiru what rego they would put it under...55 or LSA. Not specified. Thats the next step.

 

Also, if anyone has one, wouldn't mind an opinion of it ;)

 

Cheers,

 

Scotty

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

Another point, can anyone see any reason why a factory recon Jab would be any less durable than new? Saving of $3000, but new engines are so nice ;)

 

Oh, and as an extra to the above, if you were to buy it without a transponder, again can it be fitted yourself at a later stage?

 

 

[Guest Cloudsuck]

G'day Rocko,

 

 

You can do all your own maintenance on an LSA as per normal providing it is not being used for training and you follow the manufacturer's maintenance schedule to the letter.

 

 

As far as adding a GPS or instruments etc. I added my own radio, intercom, Transponder and GPS.

 

 

What you are not allowed to do is make unapproved modifications (any changes to the airframe or engine etc). GPS, Radio and transponder are factory approved options and therefore are ok.

 

 

If you do make unapproved modifications, you can simply have a new Certificate of Airworthiness issued in the Experimental category. You then can’t use if for training or reward etc.

 

 

I’m not sure why you would want to register a J160 in the LSA class. They seem to have a MTOW of 540kg’s anyway so just register it ultralight. They barely climb away at less than normal (540kg) MTOW as it is. I think if they made them 600kg’s MTOW, they would not get off the ground.

 

 

[peterm]

I think the recon solid lifter engine is more bullet proof the new hydrolic lifter engines are easyer to maintain though just dont supercool them most through bolts break after practicing simulated engine failure (windmilling the prop on decent+engine shock cooling) they also use a tad more fuel due to bigger jeting than solid lifter.

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

Thanks for that info :)

 

Actually, I wasn't specifically planning for LSA. Just wasn't sure what they had intended their registration to be, since it just said RAA reg. So, likely a 55 cat.

 

So, if you did your own maintenance, then wanted to sell it later suitable for training, it is not possible? Or would it mean full inspection by L2 prior to use for training?

 

The J120 is pretty limited in some ways, but the price is very, very good. $58K with new engine, and $55 with reco. Especially for the performance. I only have a few gripes with it.

 

I'd like a proper turn coordinator, and not just a ball, so I wondered if it could be changed without a lot of rigmarole.

 

Fuel tank is pretty small. 65L.

 

Small wheels, would prefer larger for nastier strips.

 

And a few other bits that couldn't be fitted after, such as strobes, etc.

 

However, again it's built to a price, and is very well fitted out for that price. After all, with the dollar gone to hell, good luck buying anything in the same price from o'seas with similar specs.

 

I'd also assume it'd be suitable for controlled airspace, if fitted with a transponder, when the cert is all sorted out.

 

Scotty

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

And I believe the MTOW is 500kg, although usable load is 235kg, which is basically the same as the J160 at 240kg usable and 540kg MTOW.

 

 

[Guest Cloudsuck]

Oh sorry I miss read the original post. I thought you were talking J160 rather than J120.

 

Yes the J120 represents awesome value for money for a brand new plane. You should try them with a 6cyl engine. I have a SP500T which is a tailwheel version of the J120 with a 6cyl 3.3 litre engine (For Sale). It is longer in the fuse and with a bigger rudder but otherwise the same aircraft. They are a serious performance machine. I too like the solid lifter engines.

 

On the other note, I had a 55 registered Drifter which I did all the maintenance myself (private use). I sold it to a School who still use it. It had to have a Level 2 inspection and service prior to sale but is happily living out it's days as a trainer.

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

Excellent, Thanks for that info. It was a concern, that I spend the money on factory built, then find I can't sell it easily because I self-maintained.

 

Admittedly, I tend to have servicing done by a Jab certified technician in the past, but there are a lot of things I did myself. Have to cut costs somewhere ;)

 

 

[Guest Flyer40]

Glad you asked this question Rocko, I've been try to get my head around this myself.

 

Taking this question a little further, assuming that the 750 kg weight increase is approved and aircraft like the cessna 150 and some RV's come under RAAus administration, could the owner still do their own maintenance and approved modifications, even if they weren't the original builder in the case of the RV?

 

 

[Guest brentc]

It is the case with GA that you can't maintain the aircraft if you weren't the builder, but as we know you can with RA-Aus, so unless there's a big maintenence change in the regs with RA-Aus, then you would indeed be able to maintain a second-hand RV (brilliant).

 

 

[Guest Flyer40]

Thanks Brent. This is indeed brilliant, if it happens that way.

 

 

[Spriteah]

The comment made that you can modify your own lsa I think is a little misleading.

 

Jabiru can modify by installing options such as radio's gps etc... But I'm not sure that anyone else can (just because they do). I think this would put you outside the LSA boundarys.

 

And the maintenance log would have to show it.

 

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here!!!!

 

Jim

 

 

[Guest Michael Coates]

you are correct and remember its an offence to fly with a transponder thats not in current calibration

 

 

[Guest Cloudsuck]

The comment made that you can modify your own lsa I think is a little misleading.Jabiru can modify by installing options such as radio's gps etc... But I'm not sure that anyone else can (just because they do). I think this would put you outside the LSA boundarys.

 

And the maintenance log would have to show it.

 

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here!!!!

 

Jim

No I think that you are wrong. The aircraft is designed to have a radio, and comes with a radio option. Therefore fitting a radio is not modifying the aircraft as it is within the design of the aircraft.

 

A modification is a change away from the design like fitting a set of cowl flaps, fitting a different set of brakes or undercarriage etc.

 

lets say for a moment you are right, if I purchase an LSA aircraft without a radio, that would mean the aircraft could never have a radio, EVER! I don't think so.

 

 

[Spriteah]

I think it can have a radio. But not be classified as LSA anymore.

 

Interesting.

 

 

[Guest Michael Coates]

The radio can be installed but you need a new weight and balance and it all needs to be signed off

 

 

[Spriteah]

Well further to that. If you gain the consent of Jabiru to install the radio or conduct any modifications then it would be ok. However, I doubt Jab will do that for you. And when I say consent if will need to be in writing. That is why they say you need to order it how you want it.

 

Secondly, although it would still be an LSA if you modify it, the classification will change to LSA Experimental. It can no longer be used for commercial purposes.

 

Thanks my interpretation of SECTION 3.5.3 Technical Manual.

 

Jim

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

Well, after all is said and done, I actually think they no longer offer LSA on the J120 anyways. I know it was there when they first released it, but it's no longer an option on the Jab home page, so I guess it's back to what can be added to Cat 55 rego factory built.

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

The J120 comes with Microair radio as standard anyway. So, if you're going to go to the effort, might as well put in the transponder, Garmin 296 an be done with it, at time of building/purchase. Then it's Jabiru's problem.

 

Although I have to say, I would prefer the option of a XCom radio, if I had a choice. Then again, I understand the Microair have gone the dual frequency bit now.

 

And I couldn't fault the Grand Rapids EIS I had. It was brilliant, and almost foolproof. Again, with 55 rego, I assume this can only be then changed with factory approval. Shame, because it'd weigh a damn sight less than analog engine monitoring gauges, and is a factory option on the US built Jab aircraft.

 

Oh well. Get what your given ;>

 

 

[Spriteah]

And Rocko I might say that the EIS and plane are performing beautifully. About to pass the 100 hour mark.

 

Jim

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

Good to hear ;)

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

[snip]

Again, with 55 rego, I assume this can only be then changed with factory approval. Shame, because it'd weigh a damn sight less than analog engine monitoring gauges, and is a factory option on the US built Jab aircraft.

 

Oh well. Get what your given ;>

G'day Rocko,

 

are you talking about CAO 95.55 when you talk about "55 rego"? I'm not sure whether you are talking about standard RAA rego aircraft or LSA. LSA aircraft are also under this CAO - para 1.8 and 1.9 from memory. The 544kg aircraft are under 1.6 and 1.7 I think.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

I'm a wee bit confuzzled myself ;) I recall when they first brought out the J120, I throught I saw they had rego options for LSA and RAA. When I looked recently, they just state "RAA registration"

 

Jabiru Model 120 Completed Aircraft –

 

Flyaway

 

RAA Registration Only $58,000 incl GST

 

So, I made the assumption factory built RAA was 55...but honestly I know squat about RAA actory built rego options, so might well be wrong

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Hi Rocko,

 

RAA is 95.55 but so is LSA - just different paragraphs.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Here's CAO 95.55 for reference.

 

CAO 95.55.pdf

 

CAO 95.55.pdf

 

CAO 95.55.pdf