? death of the 2 stroke

[airborne]

i have heard through the grape vine that airborne will soon stop building the classic as the rotax 2stroke is an endangered spieies.

 

i believe that the red back is as good as finished as well.

 

anyone heard about this?

 

 

[BLA82]

I wonder what the reasons are, could it be the same reason as the MotoGP 125 and 250 class bikes are a dying type aswell due to the tree hugging individuals scared about emissions???:confused:

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

The X series Classic / Redback / Outback are all still listed in the latest Airborne price list &, AFAIK, Rotax haven't announced any plans to stop production of the 582.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[BLA82]

Thats good to hear, It means I can keep dreaming. It is a sad fact bud I still think 2 strokes sound great!!!!

 

 

[Guest Michael Coates]

Gents, I've just been to the Rotax factory and had the information first-hand. As you are aware the Rotax 503 is being dropped. The main reason for this is that the tooling is basically completely worn out and it requires a substantial investment to remake all the tooling required to manufacture the engine. As the ultralight market is changing the majority of new aircraft are not single seat aircraft which suit the Rotax 503, most of the new aircraft are two seater aircraft which suit the Rotax 912 series engines. For the immediate future the Rotax 582 will continue to be manufactured but only until the tooling is worn out when it will then be sent to pasture. The specifications for the Rotax 582 are being changed and will shortly only be available with oil injection and a few other "accessories" in standard configurations. The reason for this is to try and reduce the amount of human input in running the engine which basically means to reduce the amount of times a customer can put fuel in without doing the oil. E.g. forgetting to premix the fuel.

 

Whilst no one will admit that there is officially activity there are a number of very suitable engines in the Rotax range which will be ideal for aircraft engines including a three cylinder in-line four stroke engine which comes in standard, turbocharged, supercharge configurations offering outputs between 100 and 210 hp from the same basic powerplant. It is currently used with great success in the personal water craft market.

 

Pipistrel have managed to secure the last batch of Rotax 503 engines and will basically be getting several hundred over the next two years to suit the Taurus motor glider. These engines will be handmade by Rotax because of the worn tooling.

 

Interesting times that are changing the aircraft engine base but it reflects the fact that the market no longer wants small 2 stroke engines and that the majority of new aircraft engines are to suit larger aircraft which we didnt fly in the early days of ultralight aircraft

 

 

[BLA82]

Well a possible result that could come from the demise of two strokes is the market may become flooded with four strokes and the price become cheaper:big_grin:

 

Ok I will wake up now lol

 

 

[crusty]

Good one BLA82, I'll dream with you!

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Honda have a very yummie 4cyl turbo 4st in their WPC that would make a fantastic aviation engine.

 

Oz

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Have always been proud to admit to flying with two strokes, and no, have never forgot to put the oil in the fuel. I have flown many hours and rides with both 503 and 582s.

 

Flew an hour in a 582 Drifter on the weekend, after putting in a new ign stator for the owner. Ran beautifull as usual. The old stator had developed a 'lazy coil ' ("quote from Wally at B.Floods") and wanted to die on one mag switch. The new stator seemed to have more goop insulation all over it.

 

I will miss those engines if they go, as they were a big step up from what we started with, and we were probabily lucky to get them, at the time.

 

PS: come to think of it, the only 2stroke that ever put me into a field was a 447 FC which spat a top ring at 175 hrs from new. I was also lucky to fly with the little Rotax 125 (Lazair twin) which was an interesting little direct-drive donk, originally used as a fire-fighting pump engine in the US.

 

 

[Outback Bob]

2 stroke oil injection systems are suss in my opinion. saw an edge classic blow engine at 220hrs at what was a reputable flying school.

 

Ever seen anyone filter oil into an oil tank? I havn't.

 

one piece of dirt or grit in system and its all over rover.

 

The 2 strokes are still going to be around for years to come, Old grey tops are still getting around.

 

All the suppliers and Instructors seem to be pushing the 912 as an entry level aircraft these days and claim the 2 strokes are dead.

 

I don't know many level 1 maintainers able to service or repair these aircraft, drums up business for the few. 2strokes have less moving parts than 4strokes. Remember this when an instructor is pushing a second hand 912 for the price of a fixed wing.

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm always happy to mix the fuel and oil rather than trust a pump. The change of colour is there to tell you that it is mixed. I am sure that quite a few engines have met their demise because of having no oil in the fuel. Nev

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...All the suppliers and Instructors seem to be pushing the 912 as an entry level aircraft these days and claim the 2 strokes are dead...

This hasn't been my experience. I bought the 912 for its much longer endurance and lower total cost of ownership (ie 2S servicing is much more frequent, more frequent change of consumables, overhaul required much sooner etc..).

 

Unfortunately, many people look at only up-front costs and not the long term cost of ownership. Unfortunatley that short term view by the majority of the population is what has driven the quality out of almost all consumer goods... don't start me:angry:

 

 

[facthunter]

Dead right there David. IF people don't buy a good product or do not know whether it is better, there is no point in having made it better. The consumer determines the value/quality in the long run. Nev

 

 

[Outback Bob]

Classic.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Maybe electric will slowly overcome 2 strokes.

 

 

[Bluey]

Airborne are looking at replacing the 2 stroke trikes with HKS four strokes. I spoke to them about it a while ago and they confirmed that they would be rigging a trike with one of these engines for testing.

 

Bluey

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Hi Bluey,

 

I heard that from another source too. I guess we'll see Airborne marketing the "XT-700" before the year is out . . . I wonder how it will be priced compared to the XT-582, given that a 582 with radiators comes close to $10k and that a HKS-700E also costs about USD10k including freight & GST.

 

 

[skeptic36]

HI all,

 

I found this: http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_ultralights interesting.

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Yenn]

It will be sad to see the end of the 503. A truly great motor and very reliable if you didn't try to tinker with it. The only times I had a problem, was once with a broken fuel line to front carby, line was nearly new. and once with carby ice I think when I landed my Thruster at Eagle Farm. Not the old Brisbane airport but in the paddock next to my house.

 

 

[sleemanj]

Thread dredge! This thread was started back in 2008.

 

 

[winsor68]

And still just as relevant in 2011... And we are still buying and flying 2 strokes in 2011.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

And still just as relevant in 2011... And we are still buying and flying 2 strokes in 2011.

I bought a new R503 for a trike project in 2009 and have been very impressed with it, though it's only got 18 hours on it now (Most of my hours are on the XT-912). I'm about to buy another new R503 for yet another trike project - Rocketising the Pursuit-10 trike I bought from Drifterdriver a few months ago and giving it a good enough climb rate to operate at our private strip safely. I'll be sending the existing B-type gearbox to Floods to check and possibly overhaul and fit it to the new R503 to send to me. I'll also be re-using the existing 60 inch 3-bladed Ivo prop and increasing its pitch from 13 degrees to 15 degrees for the extra torque of the R503 compared to the current R447.

 

It will be sad when there are no more new R503's available to buy. I can't see anything else coming along that can replace them for reliability, power/weight and ease of installation, except for maybe electric in the years to come.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Rotax didn't do a lot of development to the 503. If ihad to replace a 503 I would look @ a hirth first.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Yes, there are Hirth engines that can match the R503 & R582 for power/weight, but don't have the same reputation for reliability.

 

 

[Outback Bob]

don't start me:angry:

 

You missed the point entirely David. Do some research. I'm referring to entry level aircraft, for student pilots. Not your long term plans. I Spoke to 5 schools and 3 different microlight suppliers about a pilots first trike, All the people I spoke to, were leading down the 912 road in conversation, prove me wrong? Who is killing off the 2 strokes?