? death of the 2 stroke

[Guest davidh10]

You missed the point entirely David. Do some research. I'm referring to entry level aircraft, for student pilots. Not your long term plans. I Spoke to 5 schools and 3 different microlight suppliers about a pilots first trike, All the people I spoke to, were leading down the 912 road in conversation, prove me wrong? Who is killing off the 2 strokes?

No worries Bob. I simply offered my experience. It is my first trike. I bought it less than two months after getting my Pilot Certificate and did my PAX as well as completing my Navs in it. It wasn't new either (>700Hrs), but it suited my needs and intended usage, as well as budget.

 

There are many people in the world who will not give good advice, whether well meant or otherwise. Perhaps I was lucky in the school I chose, but my experience was not as you described. When I approached the CFI about buying the trike he had for sale, the first question he had was to ask what sort of flying I contemplated (local or traveling to places). He did talk about two strokes, even though that would have meant I would not have been buying from him at the time. He would have helped me either way.

 

He has helped others into 2-strokes, usually second hand and assisted in pre-purchase inspections, etc...

 

 

[Dieselten]

Evolution of the aircraft is killing the 2-stroke engine. Trike fliers want to go higher and faster - that needs a 4-stroke. 2-strokes are banned from sale in some jurisdictions - that doesn't help. 2-Strokes are fuel-thirsty - another strike against them. But the single most important factor in the extinction of the 2-stroke is the factory that produces the pre-eminent 2-stroke engines for trikes - Rotax - will not replace worn-out tooling used to make the 503 and the 582 engines. Ultimately this means no spare parts. The aircraft is out-evolving the powerplant.

 

For those on a budget (most of us, myself included) a cheap 2-stroke trike is a great way to get started and to build those very important first 500 or so flying-hours. But when times comes to part with that much-loved 2-stroke trike, it won't be worth much, and you will have done a lot of maintenance and burnt a lot of fuel. If you stop flying at that point because a good used 4-stroke is out of your reach, then you will have had hours of enjoyment, learned a lot and been enriched by your experiences.

 

On the other hand, if you move on to a 4-stroke trike, the difference will "chalk and cheese". The improvement in performance, maintenance and fuel-consumption comes at a price, which is paid up-front, rather than during the lifetime of the engine.

 

There is no conspiracy to try and kill off the 2-stroke because none is needed. Time and progress are doing that, coupled with the pragmatism of the principal manufacturer of 2-stroke engines suitable for trikes. Instructors give students and pilots the best advice they can, outlining the pros and cons of each type of engine. A wise instructor then allows his student/pilot to make up their own mind, and does his best to see they acquire a good aircraft, regardless of which type of engine powers it.

 

 

[facthunter]

The two stroke is not DEAD. It's ALWAYS smelt like it was. Nev

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Rotax didn't do a lot of development to the 503. If ihad to replace a 503 I would look @ a hirth first.

FT, Are you referring to the fuel efficiency of the R503 versus the 447 or the 582?

 

I've noticed in the Rotax engine manual there are some graphs for these 3 engines which plot grams (or mL) of fuel burnt per kW.hr against engine speed. The R503 appears to do its best burning 550grams/kW.hr at about 5,800 rpm and the 447 and 582 get down below 500grams/kW.hr . . . food for thought.

 

Are there similar graphs for Hirths?

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[fly_tornado]

no idea, but you can't buy a new 503 any more can you?

 

 

[eastmeg2]

no idea, but you can't buy a new 503 any more can you?

Only the importer can answer that accurately. But I did buy a new one 2 months ago.

 

 

[facthunter]

Two strokes are hard to beat in the power to weight stakes. The exhaust expansion chamber is hard to accommodate sometimes in a streamline fashon. I would not lament the demise of the smaller Rotax's. While many will have some long experiences of them an unbiased examintion of them would lead me to believe that something else better could easily be made in the future. Nikasil barrells for instance. To me these engines are nothing particularly special, quality or design wise.. The main thing was that they were available in an "aircraft" configuration with a reasonable gearbox.(eventually). Nev

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Remember in the early seventy's they said it was the end of two strokes, they must have been right because it's only nearly forty years later and their still saying it's the last of the two strokes.

 

Just like they said the world only had enough fossil fuels left for 30 years in 1974, now they say the world only has enough fossil fuels left for thirty years, no wonder people are getting complacent. If you keep saying the world is ending and it doesn't eventually nobody is going to take any notice, the current climate debate smacks of this.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Quote facthunter: "Nikasil barrells for instance. To me these engines are nothing particularly special, quality or design wise.."

 

I must disagree facto, the 582 and Hirth F23 for instance are both at a very high state of development for the 2-stroke. The rotary valve water-cooled 582, and the nikisiled cylinders and chromemoly crankshaft in the Hirths, are as good as you can get.

 

The cylinder barrels never gave much trouble on two-strokes, and I've yet to see any worn out on the Rotax two-strokes. those cast-iron bores were tough as...the Kawasaki 440s as used in the Pioneer Flightstar and others, had chrome cylinders, and you couldn't make a mark on them ekither. The Hirths were the first with the nikasil bore followed by Rotax with the 912. They continue to give excellent service.

 

The main problems with two-strokes over the years was with rings and pistons, often as a result of timing problems or fuel/carb dramas resulting in overheating.

 

When I look back on my two stroke flying years, I have nothing but admiration for the service they gave me.

 

I have flown with the following engines: Rotax 125 (single cylinder direct-drive used on the twin engined Lazair), Rotax 337, Rotax 447 FC, Rotax 503 single and twin carb, Rotax 532, Rotax 582, Hirth F23, Kawisaki 440.

 

The only one that ever let me down was the 447 FC which overheated at 175 hrs from new, spat a top piston-ring, and put me into a field for my second forced landing. A lot of 503 and 582 time, and they always ran great.

 

I did experience carb-ice once on a twin-carb 503, but it still got me home ok.

 

I've flown a lot of rides with the 503 and 582, and they always did the job well.

 

I look back on my two-stroke days with fond memories, and a lot of good flying behind, and in front of them.......................Maj...

 

 

[facthunter]

The two strokes I referred to were the earlier,air cooled, small rotax's... Pressed in, IRON sleeves in aluminium castings, can easily distort and develop "hot spots" and localised piston seizing. You cannot be sure of the heat path (conduction) by contact, of the iron to the aluminium. The Kawasaki air cooled triples had this broblem badlly. You never know when and IF the problem will occurr. It's often put down to other causes. and it's not a thing that you can just look at and detect..Nev

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I had several of the Kawasaki range of tripples 750, a 400 and a 250. The 250 and 750 had a few centre cylinder hickups, both rapid closing of the throttle at high speed, sudden leaning. Running out of fuel did it as well. All models were nortorious for fouling the centre plug around town. Thirsty as well about 8mpg for the 750. Fun bikes that didn't handle or stop that well but went like the showers.

 

What was that early Rotax Twin? The 447? It would run Ok for hours then have a instant lock up for no reason. And broke a few crankshafts as well. Wanted to go straight back to the 440 robin after a few frights when they first went on the single seat Thruster.

 

 

[facthunter]

I prefer low stressed bigger capacity four strokes,( conventional Clunkers) for reliability. For the sports machine I think a purpose-built wankel is a possibility, because if they will start, they will get you home and for the low investment lightweight bugsmasher a little two stroke. I wouldn't worry about the fuel consumption in this instance. I have had around 13 to 14 litres per hour on circuits with two in a 582 SB drifter, so that's OK. Maybe a mercedes 'smart" engine with a good redrive, might be a Goer... Electric may be the thing though it won't have the character of a largish radial as I ALWAYS go outside when one flys over to see what it is. Nev..

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

As far as two-strokes snicking up suddenly, I found that to be more the case with the earlier single ign (points) fan-cooled varieties. The Cayuna 430s were certainly pretty good at it for no reason, and got a few good pilots in the process.

 

As the points wore in the early Rotaxs the effect would be to lean the engine out, which if not caught could certainly end with a snick-up. Additionally if you didn't keep the belt tight on fan-cooled engines, it would slip unnoticed at full Rpms just when you needed the cooling, and cause the same thing.

 

This was more than often the maintainers fault and not really that of the engine.

 

I don't recall it being too much of a drama with later 503s and 582s.................................................Maj...

 

 

[crusty]

My first trike was a two stroke because that was all I could afford at the time, probably a similar situation a lot of people just starting in the sport find themselves in, mind you the two stroke was a great trouble free motor for me (I now have a 912). With regards the HKS four stroke, I seen it late last year fitted to an XT and flew along side it while Shane was flying it. They told me the cost would be somewhere between the two and four stroke rotax's and the reason for the HKS was simply some people did not like two strokes. From memory I think the HKS four stroke is 60 hp whereas the Rotax 582 is 65 hp.

 

WP.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Regarding my earlier posts about the efficiencly of the R503, the grams of fuel burnt per kW.hr are the same as for the R447. Both these engines get down to 500g/kW.hr near the top end of their rev range.

 

The liquid cooled R582 on the other hand gets down to about 410g/kW.hr which is significantly more efficient than the air cooled 447 & 503. Is it typical to see liquid cooled engines being that much more efficient than air cooled engines.

 

I came across a Youtube video of an Airborne "XT-HKS" being flown with what looked like the slow Merlin Wing in France recently, from some the recent posts here I take it that was a factory job an not somebody's modification.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[XC-Buzzard]

i have heard through the grape vine that airborne will soon stop building the classic as the rotax 2stroke is an endangered spieies.i believe that the red back is as good as finished as well.

 

anyone heard about this?

Talking about the slow demise of our beloved two-strokes, were is the best place a guy can get some Needle Jets, and Jet Needles, For his Bing 54's Anyone ? Anyone ? and not the obvious like Burty Floods Thanks ,, I just want to buy the Parts not the whole engine ! cheers

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Hi Lance,

 

I'm pretty sure you can buy just a carby overhaul kit which includes the jet needles and isn't too pricey.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[robinsm]

Wade MAHLO at Wade air in orange has the overhaul kits , I have used them myself. ( I have no association with Wade air.)

 

Cheers

 

Maynard

 

 

[fly_tornado]

CPS will have them if you don't mind the 2 week wait to get delivered.

 

 

[XC-Buzzard]

Hi Lance,I'm pretty sure you can buy just a carby overhaul kit which includes the jet needles and isn't too pricey.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

Thanks for that Glen, Good to hear from you again mate, I know I can get The Kits For the Bings off Burt Floods , But being the careful shopper that I am , I was testing the water with the Forum as to best Prices out there . lol ! I didnt think that Wade / Mahlo , at Orange was still in the business, Maynard . I have been a Customer of his Before, and happy with speed of delivery , But theres been no advertisements that Ive seen In a long time anywhere, not in the Raaus Mag recently, I sent an Email to them and have had no reply. CPS could be a thought If they accnowledge our stronger Dollar and Give you the Discounts , But ofcourse any discount would be swallowed up by the over the top Postage n Handling charges, even for something small enough to fit in an ordinary envelope,, I kno this cos I ordered Alluminium Prop leading Edge Tape, and the Postage was dearer . Thanks Guys , Cheers Lance

 

 

[robinsm]

Give wade a ring, he is still very much in business and the delivery, and prices are still brilliant. Bought some exhaust springs off him that arrived yesterday.

 

Cheers

 

Maynard

 

 

[XC-Buzzard]

Give wade a ring, he is still very much in business and the delivery, and prices are still brilliant. Bought some exhaust springs off him that arrived yesterday.Cheers

Maynard

Will do thanks Maynard...

 

 

[skyfox1]

Hi l agree l got so bits from CPS last month took credit card details got the price of the items and no postage costs they said they dont no postage cost at this time anyway check my account two days later postage was $112.00

 

when parts came postage was only $78.00 on the parcel l have emailed them twice about the difference in price but no responce. As far as b flood l think l own the company now as well.

 

Wade is still in business as l have just delt with him .