How much should a 100 hourly be

[Ewen McPhee]

What is an average expected cost for a 100 hourly? For a C182? Just had our first 100 hourly at $10K

 

 

[facthunter]

Cost.

 

That works out at 100 dollars an hour IF you did the full 100 Hrs. Sometimes when you take an aircraft to a "new" LAME he has to go over things that are supposed to have been done in the past, because the aircraft has to be in an airworthy condition, after the service. Once the aircraft is known to the engineer, you might expect to pay less. Did you have the aircraft inspected prior to purchase by a type expert? Your mechanic should advise you of impending "big" expenses, as many of them can be anticipated. Propeller overhaul/inspection can be a large item and some brand parts may not be available.

 

Whatever you paid for the C-182, all your servicing costs relate more to the NEW price than the purchase price. If you had a new plane the interest costs would be 60,000 a year, and you still have to service it,and the depreciation could be of the same order, but you would expect your service costs to be about 1/3rd of the older plane figure (ball-park). The main thing is to get good reliable servicing and fair value for your money. Planes are not cheap toys. The first 100 hourly could cost more than the purchase price, in cases where the purchase has been unwise. No great comfort am I? but I've been where you are, but I was even sillier. Mine was an IFR Twin, and THAT is dumb. Nev..

 

 

[Yenn]

I don't own a GA aircraft, but am very surprised at 50 hours for a compression problem in a cylinder. I would have thought 50 hours would cover a major overhaul for a C182 engine.

 

Interesting to see what the experts say.

 

 

[facthunter]

More.

 

I would suggest that there would be a lot more than just the cylinder, There are a lot of inspections to be done, as well as checking the compressions, but we are guessing, as we do not have the information. You can pay 6000 to service German cars, without replacing major components, and they are not as old as the Cessna. Nev

 

 

[Ewen McPhee]

Thanks - I did modify my post after reflecting that I might be perceived as having a go at LAMEs. That wasn't my intention.

 

We had cylinder problems and the engine was not running at full power. So obviously it was going to costs us. I suspect that we are paying for some problems that existed in the aircraft prior to purchase. It had had a 100 hourly done 6 months prior to purchase but had been sitting in its hangar since then doing very little flying. And it is obviously good that the LAME was dilligent in their assessment of the aircraft, to detect and manage the problems.

 

I have read the discussion in another thread about 20 minutes run ins on the ground each month to turn the engine over (I suspect that was what had happened for a while)

 

We had it inspected by an independent LAME and he virtually said the aircraft was the best C182 he had seen for its age and the engine was imaculate.

 

Anyway it is running sweetly now so from a safety point of view it is all good.

 

I am interested in the hows and why's of 100 hourlys and why they do cost so much. Is there anything you can do to reduce the costs as a pilot or Owner?

 

 

[facthunter]

search.

 

Shop around and ask who has a good relationship with his/her maintainence organisation. I once had a LAME say to me that without his signature, my aeroplane could not be flown. My reaction GET ANOTHER MAINTENANCE PERSON. You have every right to be involved with how your money is spent on your aeroplane. You do not need a control freak. You just need a proper process of getting your aircraft serviced, with accountability for the work done. Nev..

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

I've been a part of many 100 hrly's on 182's over the past few years and there is not a huge amount to them usually. Generally its a oil change and filter compression test and a good look around the engine. All the inspection panels off and a good look around. Seats and carpet out for a look through the fuse and wheels and bearings out for a clean and grease.

 

Find a company that will let you go in a help you do the work. You will save money by doing some of it yourself and you will also be able to question the bill when they say they did something and you watched them do nothing of the sort! You will learn more about your aircraft and be more able to fix something yourself if it breaks in the field. Most pilots don't relaise how much of the work you can actually do yourself under Schedule 13 and it will save you some big bucks!

 

Adam

 

 

[old man emu]

The cost of a 100 Hourly/Annual Inspection depends on factors like:

 

1. The actual manhours involved in the job

 

2. The age and condition of the aircraft

 

3. The complexity of the aircraft

 

4. The currency exchange rate between $A and $US.

 

1. Actual Manhours involved.

 

In order to start an inspection, the aircraft has to be uncowled, and inspection panels removed. Some a/c have complicated cowling systems; lots of inspection panels, and wheel spats. Others - generally the composites - have few inspection panels. Part of the bill comes from the time it takes to take these things off, and replace them at the end of a job.

 

The number of cylinders affects price. Obviously it takes longer to do a compression check on a six cylinder than a four cylinder, and there are more spark plugs to clean and gap.

 

Periodic examinations, such as magneto overhauls, and instrument calibrations add to the time and expense of inspections.

 

2. Age and condition of aircraft.

 

Age is related to deterioration. The older the a/c, the more chance that the material of which it is made will show signs of corrosion, or other forms of deterioration. It takes time and money to bring corroded parts up to scratch.

 

Some items have to be replaced after fixed time intervals, whether they show signs of deterioration or not. These include ELT batteries, fuel and oil hoses.

 

Other items are consumables, such as brake pads, tyres and alternator brushes. Their rate of replacement depends on the amount of use an a/c gets.

 

Then there are items that become damaged due to improper use, notably starter motors.

 

3. Complexity of the a/c

 

Clearly, a twin engined IFR aircraft is going to require more time spent on it than a simple LSA, C-172 or PA-28 due to the number and complexity of its systems.

 

4. The Exchange Rate.

 

Since most aircraft components are sources in the USA, their cost by the time they arrive at your aircraft is dependant on the ratio of the $A to the $US.

 

Can you save money by doing some of the work yourself?

 

Well it depends on your LAME. Remember, it's his reputaion and Licence that is at stake every time he signs a Maintenance Release. If you make a mistake doing a job which is part of the inspection, and your aircraft crashes, it won't be your name that is mentioned in aviation circles as the one who goofed. It will be the LAME's, and it might result in the destruction of his livelihood.

 

Also, what do you do for a crust? How would you take it if someone who did not have your experience doing your job came to your workplace and started to "help" you do yours? How would your fellow workers react?

 

I know that if owners come in to my workplace and hang around "being useful" , you can feel the tension rising in the hangar. The heightened tension can lead to fellows making mistakes doing jobs they can normally do blindfolded.

 

How can you reduce your costs for Periodics?

 

Look after your aircraft. Don't bash it around. Learn to start it. If you notice a problem, have it checked out immediately - a stitch in time saves nine.

 

And if you want to make a small fortune from aviation - start with a big one.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[Ewen McPhee]

Thanks for a very detailed reply. Couldn't ask for a clearer summary of the issues. As stated out plane is running better than ever now. Local Instructor keeps wanting to borrow it :thumb_up:

 

 

[Chird65]

OME, I beg to disagree. pretty much every workplace I've been in has the non experts decreasing their costs. All the things mentioned such as de cowling and access panels are capable of any person who has a licence to fly. If they can't do this then I would suggest they are not capable of looking after their aircraft on a daily inspection.

 

I for one love to watch others work (I could do it all day);), and in the end I learn what to lookk for next time.

 

In my business I find if I am completely open and available to customers they trust me more and send more work to me.

 

regards Chris

 

 

[old man emu]

I agree that some aircraft owners, especially those who have built, or refurbished their own plane are quite capable of doing a lot of the work required during a periodic. The organisation I work for has a few customers like that, and they are quite welcome in the hangar.

 

However, a lot of our customers own aircraft as an adjunct to their lifestyles, and aren't interested in getting down and dirty. Their requirments are to have an airworthy aircraft which they can pull from the hangar, "kick the tyres; light the fires, and flock off." They would never consider coming into the work area.

 

Then there's the "Enthusiast". This is the guy who has the money to buy and operate a plane, but has limited mechanical ability. His plane is his baby. He's the one who arrives at the workshop with his plane and hovers over it like a blowfly over a paddock patty. He's full of comments like, "Don't push there, you'll break something", and "Would you mind taking your work boots off before you get into the cockpit?" He stands behind you, peering into the job and incessently asks questions, the answers to which you know he will never act upon. He's the sort of guy who will spend a fortune implementing some idea he's read on some obscure website to get an extra knot of cruise speed, but forget to remove unecesssary junk from the back of the cockpit to reduce weight.

 

Enthusiasts soon find themselves banned from the workshop, and get get all upset and huffy with the maintenance organisation. Then they take their business to another organisation and spend the rest of their lives telling their cronies at the areo club about that lousy organisation who refused to service their plane, just because he tried to tell the LAMEs what to do to get that extra knot out of his pride and joy. He also reckons maintenance costs are over the top. After all, he flew 25 hours last year and had to pay the same for a Annual that the flying school pays for a periodic.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Now thats a good assessment old man emu.

 

As a bill payer I had to laugh to myself about the 'stages of learning' I went through re understanding aircraft maintenance - after awhile I discovered that sometimes the LAME's really do know what their doing

 

 

[markendee]

O.M.E, your blood's worth bottling.

 

Spot on.

 

I have customers that service their own machines 'by the book' and when the gear fails and they come to us they cannot tell me what they set the valve clearances to (or in fact what valve clearance is)

 

Next time I go to my Doctor I will google my symptoms and halve the fee by telling the Doc what's wrong with me and how to fix it. Don't even get me started on my accountant's fees. (but we still pay them)

 

I don't see too many extremely fat and rich LAME's out there.

 

Mark

 

 

[old man emu]

Before I purchased an aircraft, I would first seek out a LAME who was going to do the maintenance for me. This would involve asking a lot of operators for their opinions on who they thought were reputable LAME's. I wouldn't be seeking the cheapest at this stage. After culling the list, I would go visit their workshops and meet them. While there, I would observe the conditions in the workshop and the demeanour of the LAME. Your life is going to depend on this guy, so is he the type you'd like to have as a trusted friend? Back yourself to make the right decision based on your ability to size up people. If you like what you see, go to the next step.

 

Spend some time talking to the LAME to get an idea of what's involved in a Periodic. Do this in his office, over coffee. Stay away from the workshop. If he's any good, he'll go through the steps involved:

 

1. Creating worksheets

 

2. Checking for recurrent MRs and ADs, as well as once off ones relating to your particular aircraft.

 

3. Examination of the aircraft's log books to see that all previous MRs and ADs have been completed.

 

4. A brief overview of what work is going to be done.

 

5. Who the LAME is going to subcontract avionics, electrical, airframe and engine work to.

 

6. How the logbooks are going to be written up and where they will be stored.

 

7. How long the completed worksheets will be kept.

 

8. What are the Account payment terms.

 

Ask him about his reference library. Is it up to date for your aircraft and engine. (This stuff if now on CD-ROM) What about his MRs and ADs? (They come from CASA in CD-ROM). How much experience has he got on your make and model of aircraft?

 

Finally, check and note the LAME's Licence number and CASA Approval Number. Is teh LAME operating under his own Approval Number, or that is he using someone else's Approval Number.

 

If you are happy with the guy, give him your business. If he's been able to go through the above interview points satisfactorily, then he knows his stuff. He's been in business long enough to know what the price of his work is in the market. Then you can ask what he charges for

 

1. A "No Problems" Periodic (Possibly in the region of $2000).

 

2. A "First Time in My Shop" Periodic (More involved, cause he'll be looking for hidden problems and completion of prior MRs and ADs)

 

3. A Biannual Periodic (Includes an Instrument 8/9).

 

Armed with all this information, you can make a better decision on who will become your LAME. He doesn't have to be on the airport where you hangar your aircraft. You can always fly away for service.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[facthunter]

Good Advice.

 

OME., You have summed it up very competently. There is a view out there that LAME's charge too much and that L2"s will do it for almost nothing. When the dust settles you will find that the difference will be less than you think. You cannot expect L2's to do it for nothing, and you have to compare apples with apples. A simple aeroplane with few instruments that is low time and hangared is quite cheap for an annual/100 hourly and the hourly rate is not much more than a car dealer charges often for the services of an apprentice. There is far more documentation and responsibility with an aircraft, and the LAME's job is on the line if he stuffs up. (and he may end up in court as well). Nev..

 

 

[poteroo]

Owned C180 and C182 aircraft for total of 14 years, running 2800hrs onto them, with never a compression problem. But know of several owners who regularly 'babied' their engines and were always in the workshop.

 

Low compressions usually related to not using full power for take off and 2-3 mins into climb. Also - from not running the engine at 65-75% power for a few minutes before making an approach. Long descents, then straight into a low pwr approach isn't good for these big engines.

 

Ground run-ups are not recommended. The engine needs to be given 'stick' - getting temps and pressures up to normal operating is the way.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest gvollmer]

Cost estimate for 100 hrly

 

What is wrong with a estimate like this

 

Labour = $100 per hour

 

Material = cost plus 10%

 

Total time spent = 8 hrs (if you can't do the inspection in 8 hrs as a professional you should not be in it)

 

cost for labour would be $ 800.00

 

plus cost for parts (this cost should not include for rip-offs)

 

have a good day

 

GV

 

 

[Guest gvollmer]

My apologies

 

My estimate only allows for an inspection plus minor parts eg oil, gaskets, screws.

 

major repairs are of different but should be based on the same principal (labour and parts and no rip-offs included)

 

GV

 

 

[old man emu]

What is wrong with a estimate like thisTotal time spent = 8 hrs (if you can't do the inspection in 8 hrs as a professional you should not be in it)

GV

What is wrong is that 8 man hours is too short a time to do a Periodic.

 

We allocate 8 man hours for the engine and 8 man hours for the airframe - a total of 16 man hours. We try to have two people working on the aircraft all day, so that a straight forward Periodic can indeed be completed in an 8 hour day.

 

Even with 16 man hours for the job, plus oils, filters, O-rings, brake pads, charging for the basic 16 hours still doesn't allow for the time involved in the paperwork and other overheads of the business.

 

Read over my earlier post about what is involved in doing a proper, professional job, not a cheap as job.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[alf jessup]

Thanks for a very detailed reply. Couldn't ask for a clearer summary of the issues. As stated out plane is running better than ever now. Local Instructor keeps wanting to borrow it :thumb_up:

Ewen,

 

Borrow it??? lol charge him mate there is no such thing as borrowing someone elses toy.

 

Next he might want to borrow the missus and we can have that now can we lol.

 

Cheers

 

'Alf

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

I sometimes think these mandatory inspections are a money spinner and cause more problems than they prevent. However, that's just a thought and I may not be thinking straight because of the extreme heat.

 

 

[facthunter]

If I thought that was the case I would take it somewhere else. No harm in asking just what is done, if you are curious. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

They may be a money spinner, but would you be happy renting a plane that had 50 hours since its last inspection, which was 5 years ago?

 

If planes running out of go, couldn't cause damage to someone else it may be acceptable to do no maintenance. But poorly maintained planes can kill, not only the owner, but also strangers.

 

For private planes an annual is a requirement, but it can go over the 100 hours. I doubt that many will.

 

 

[Robbo]

Unless you are an engineer you have no idea the work that goes into 100 hourlys.

 

They may look and seem basic but trust me its not as easy as it sounds and does take time.

 

Remember engineers are not your backyard car mechanic and your not just doing a quick service on the family car.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

With my 500 hour Jabiru I have saved $50,000 on 5 only 100 hour services. Gosh I can't wait to tell the wife how much I've saved and how she can go out and spend up.

 

One thing you can do is to look for somebody who will let you help. A lot of the time spent is getting access to bits and then replacing panels etc, and you would be able to do this yourself with the right arrangement. And you will learn some good stuff.