Training: J160 or Cessna 172

[ckaine]

Hi Everyone!

 

My father is looking to complete his pilots licence/certificate and is trying to decide between going via the RAA route in a J160 or GA in a C172.

 

The Aero Club offers training in both.

 

As I completed my licence in a LSA/J160 i'm not able to give him any information on the C172 differences.

 

He has been told that it is likely that he will pick things up more quickly in the Cessna and may infact go solo and pass his GFPT in less hours than if he were flying the J160.

 

The cost difference per hour is approx $75 to $80.

 

If there is anyone here who might be able to give an opinion on which way may be best option it would be much appreciated.

 

I've let him know that he is able to convert either way at a later stage but his thoughts are that going with GA first off may work out at a similar cost if he is able to complete the GFPT in less hours.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

 

 

[shags_j]

Except that GFPT is only halfway. Yo really need PPL's. When you factor in the cost of doing that then surely it would be cheaper the RA route. I know my lessons are going to actualyl be 50% of what they were in GA.

 

 

[ckaine]

hi,

 

I appreciate that it's only half way but consider it the same as RAA prior to completing the nav endorsement.

 

 

[shags_j]

Yeha but means that the saving on the cheaper aircraft will become more pronounced than if it was soleley GFPT based.

 

 

[Guest Mad Dave]

......and you don't have to get a medical etc. etc.

 

I reckon starting RA is the best (cheapest) way to go.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Well...break down the cost's..

 

PPL Cost's

 

Casa medical (grade 2) = $100

 

Proccesing fee = $ 75

 

Asic application =$ 195

 

30 hours duel instructio c172 ($240 p/h) =$7200

 

10 solo c172 @ $195 p/h =$1950

 

Casa cyber exam =$70

 

TOTAL COST For PPL= $9590

 

Raa Cost's

 

RAA membership fee =$ 160

 

15 hours duel instruction @ $160 p/h = $2400

 

5 hours solo @ 120 p/h = $600

 

8 hours Duel Navigation instruction = $1280

 

2 hours solo navigation = $240

 

3 hours solo (to obtain 10 solo hours for passenger carry endorsment)=$360

 

Total so far = $5040

 

Now.. Lets see about converting to PPL from here.

 

Casa medical (grade 2) = $100

 

Proccesing fee = $ 75

 

Asic application =$ 195

 

4 hours duel (approx) c172= $960

 

3 hours solo c172 = $780

 

Cyber exam =70

 

total cost to Convert = $2180

 

Add to cost of licence= $5040

 

Total = $7220

 

So for $2370 LESS you get Both licences.

 

Now, it needs to be said that these projections are based on minnimum hours required, normally it takes a bit longer. And also im not 100% sure on the solo requirement for the PPL. Someone will let us know if 10 hours is wrong. Also 4 hours duel in a c172 after youve been trained in a jab may be a bit excessive. But, remember that there are plenty of GA registered jabiru's out there you could do your PPL test in.. So a big saving there.. But still conversion time needed to jump into bigger acft..

 

But you can see that the RAA is the far cheaper way to go, even for the PPL.. The 2 grand left over could be used to hire a plane for a trip up the coast ;) post licence..

 

hope this helps

 

cheers

 

 

[shags_j]

And those number don't include landing fees gst etc.

 

I know my flying worked out to on average in a c172 $320/hr dual and less about $60 per hour solo.

 

 

[ckaine]

Thank you for all the useful information.

 

Would the Jabiru be considered more difficult to fly and therefore take longer to pick up than the 172??

 

 

[shags_j]

I'll be able to answer that next week. To date I have only flown on GA aircraft (C172, cherokee, tomohawks etc). First flight in a Jab on Saturday.

 

 

[Guest Mad Dave]

I have heard GA trained pilots who have flown the Jab say they don't like it as it is hard to fly. But I reckon if it is "harder" to fly a Jabiru that's good, as it will make converting to GA easier.

 

If that makes sense?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

The jab is a more difficult acft to fly.. But it all evens out in the end as it will be easier to pick up the c172 when it comes time..I reckon you could, as a bit of a guess, add 3-4 hours to first solo time.. depending on a lot of things of course..

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I don't find either aircraft easy or hard to fly, just different. I think if you go from a Jab to the C172 you will find it heavy and like a brick. Going the other way you might find the Jab gets blown around a lot more and requires a lot more rudder input. Some people will convert in minutes, others in hours. It is hard to say which camp you will fall into before the fact.

 

Another minor point in Mozarts posts. The ASIC is not required for the PPL, it is required for certain airports. If you want to fly into these airports it doesn't matter what you are flying you still need the ASIC. The cost here is a bit of a moot point really but I agree with the general sentiment of the post.

 

 

[shags_j]

But if you don't get an asic then you need to get a security search done which costs $280 or something. I found it a little bit cheaper to get the asic.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Fair point shags but my point still stands. If you want to fly into Lismore, you need an ASIC, if you want to fly to Mudgee, you need an ASIC, etc.

 

PPL or RAA aside, the requirement still stands so most people will end up having an ASIC making the cost the same either way. But as I said, this is a minor point in the big scheme. Mozart summed it up nicely and even with the ASIC taken out the saving is still over $2k based on his figures.

 

 

[Guest Macnoz]

Mmerv

 

Every time you mention duel instruction I keep envisaging a couple of Jab 160’s with pistols at dawn in the circuit at Camden going ack ack ack

 

john

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Lol.. funny .. but there is such thing as supervised solo, which is still charged at a duel rate.. so.....

 

Airsick.. don't you need an asic or avid to get the student licence?? if not...then i got Jipped...;)

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I think he was on about duel vs dual.

 

I guess I wasn't clear. Yes, you do need it but what I was trying to say was that in the end almost all of us end up with an ASIC. Unless you are one of the few who never stray into the RPT airports (although there are more and more of these as flights get cancelled) then you will need to get one regardless of the licence/certificate you hold. That's what I was trying to say! :)

 

 

[shags_j]

You need either an AVID or ASIC regardless to get your student. YOu must get one or the other. I went asic cause it was cheaper upfront.

 

 

[skybum]

G'Day and good post. What will determine the end cost is actually a combination of how good your instructor is and how quickly you pick up on the concept. In this regard there is no difference between the two aircraft as long as you do not change horses.

 

From my other posts on the subject I could be said to be biased against the layout of the Jab adding an extra few hours to master a terrible control system. however, the aeroplane flies very well and would instill all the right techniques that is the concept.

 

Jab is definitely cheaper than the cessna. You must be truthful to yourself in what type of flying you intend to do. Part103 and RAA in CTA negates a lot of differences between GA and RAA.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Another thing i forgot to mention..The CASA factor.. It can and does take weeks, sometimes months for the medical and student licence (asic) to come back..and you can't go solo untill that all comes back..so if your looking at knocking it over quickly, then you mise well wait untill all the paperwork comes back before comencing flying training..

 

The RAA on the otherhand will fax you a copy of the student licence usually on the same day, or next day...:thumb_up:

 

cheers

 

 

[Yenn]

Good forum, this one.

 

ckaine never said what was his fathers final intention. If it was only to fly for fun, then why bother with GA. The RAA path will save money and still provide the fun flying.

 

Being an old bloke myself I would expect if I was learning a new trick thet it would take longer than the minimum number of hours.

 

If money is not a problem I would go the GA path, just for the legal ability to fly higher, up in the E class airspace, with transponder etc,

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I went asic cause it was cheaper upfront.

Is it really? Might be cheaper on the surface but it only lasts two years versus five for the AVID.

 

 

[shags_j]

Is it really? Might be cheaper on the surface but it only lasts two years versus five for the AVID.

That's why I said upfront.

 

 

[dingduck]

Couple of points:

 

RAA is cheaper up front - there is less in the syllabus, no medical, no security checks. After a number of years the annual membership to RAA does even things up.

 

- Older folks take longer to learn - sorry, just stating the facts.

 

- On the face of it the J160 is a cheap trainer but keep in mind:

 

- The J160 is a quirky thing to land - older folks can take significantly longer to get on top of it & need to fly regularly to stay on top of it.

 

- The poor rate of climb makes it an inefficient trainer.

 

- Unless your flying school has shorter NAV's for the J160, they may cost more than in a more expensive plane that is faster.

 

- What flying is planned once training is complete? If 4 seats is what he needs, then Dad may as well do PPL straight off with some NAV's at least in the plane he intends to use.

 

The J160 has taught many many people to fly well, it's just not as cheap as it looks on paper. Have you looked at other ultralights? - the total cost of learning on a Tecnam, Texan, SportStar etc is probably no more even though they cost more / hr. but would still be cheaper than a C172.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea, thats something i always forget to ask..hehe.. how heavy is dad?? if he's 90 kg+ then he will need a skinny instructor for the nav's (in the J160) like jockey skinney...or.. find one of those classy schools that don't worry to much about weights and balances;)..sorry, but they do exist..

 

Ps.. that was a joke by the way... don't fly with any school that doesn't do weights and balances.. no matter how cheap they are..

 

cheers