VMC

[GraemeK]

Note this is only for Class G below 3000' AMSL or 1000' AGL whichever is the higher.

Plus you need radio ...... it's all in the AIP.

 

Neither the VFR Guide nor any ATC publications have any regulatory standing.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes, you're right, the post was just to clarify the December confusion caused by the Aviation Theory Centre publication.

 

 

[Burlc]

One thing I learnt is read, understand and most importantly "believe" the Area Forecast.

 

I understand CASA has a DVD out on weather. Has anyone viewed this?

 

I would love to see a dvd on different clouds and weather systems that is instructional.ie with this type of cloud this spot here and here will be mod to sev turbulance. rather then learning through experience.

 

Same goes with mechanial turbulance off mountains etc

 

How high over hills or mountains to be out of the turbulance.

 

Then you see the glider guys using the lift off terrain and the Morning Glory cloud in Queensland they chase every year.

 

I look at the footage of this in amazement and some fear due to a lack of understanding on where the lifting air is to where the danger on the lee side starts.

 

So many things to know and understand but no video footage on the subject.

 

Unless someone knows different.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I'm with you Burlc and that's why I started this thread. There are so many pitfalls but so little training to avoid them.

 

There are lot's of broad descriptions, sweeping statements about being careful, but we are short on specific information and videos as you say.

 

Even case histories would help identify problem areas.

 

 

[Gibbo]

One rule that I have found that works..

 

Never fly, if you cant see a second horizon between the cloud layers and the ground. No second Horizon normally equals crap visibilty and weather futher on.

 

 

[facthunter]

Comment.

 

A lot of what has been written here indicates how DIFFICULT it is to get a specific FACTUAL and CLEAR reference on matters that affect the conduct of flights. You will find this all the way through the so-called rules. The legislation (CASR's etc.) should be the domain of lawyers and such-like. AIP's VFG etc should be clear and unambiguous as to both the intent and the meaning, to be proper working documents.

 

Buric, I agree with the need to know these things (Re meteorology) Even 20,000 hr pilots get caught out by the weather, but they probably have less of an excuse. I don't think there is any one book that will meet your requirements, but keep reading. It may save your life, and it's a hell of a subject. Most of the best information I ever obtained was from sources directed at flying gliders, and I lot of it is related to the northern hemisphere. IT can still be very relevant. The atmosphere (at least the lower parts of it) is where we fly and the amount that we have to know about meteorolgy to get the certificate is very minimal. Being able to read the weather forecasts is OK but they are not always right. To be able to read the sky could be even more important. Cheers Nev.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes, I agree - as much study as you can get, plus picking up on others tips and mistakes, like the valuable posts of Gibbo and Maj Millard.

 

 

[Gibbo]

Brett at Lilydale summed up flying weather pretty well during my X country endorsement training.

 

Risk management is basically forming an intelligence picture and then balancing the risk.

 

Table 1-LOW 3-HIGH

 

Risk Rating Type of risk and how to mitigate it.

 

cU@4500' - 1 - Lowest safe alt is 3000' therefore risk is minimal but plan for cloud @ 4000'.

 

isolated showers -1 - can avoid but extra fuel should be allowed.

 

Mod Turb below 5000'- 2 - I have flown in this before Risk is moderate.

 

260/20@2000' - 2 - Medium risk as predicted airstrip c/w at landing is 14kn. I can only handle 14kn in stable constant conditions..

 

A list of the ratings will give you a overall picture of the flight. A severe risk is a show stopper but more than one medium risk from the table would push things in case of an emergency. A series of low risks but combined at the same time while under stress could be fatal.

 

In the above case (example only) I would be having second thoughts about the flight or I may change the risk level by diverting to a different airstrip where the c/w on landing may only be 5 kn which I know I can handle with some margin for error or with another risk complicating factor such as mod turb.

 

Same process works when performing a workplace OHS assessment.

 

I absolutely hate the way that Aviation weather information is presented but it works for the majority. I will use the BOM aviation weather but place it in the overall picture presented and put it in terms I can understand myself.

 

Experiance shows.. I had one prayer session at 1500' when the lowest safe was 1700'. Never again and I will now happly sit on the ground for a couple of hours till I can see the next exit...

 

 

[farri]

During that time, spots a not -so -large blue hole above. Makes real bad decision #1 and climbs through hole after some unexpected effort, and gets on top of solid cloud, at a higher altitude than expected. Air on top is lovely, and of course the view of cloud tops is well, rareified.

Folks, they call them 'sucker holes" for a reason.

 

Don't do it !!!!....it's a huge trap that can kill experienced, and beginners alike, very quickly.

 

G`Day Ross,your the bravest guy I know,remember the weekend party,a couple of years ago at Carlo Prette`s hanger at Innisfail aerodrome when the weather turned to kaka on the sunday morning .

 

On the hole in the clouds thing.

 

All my students were instructed on the dangers of cloud and the time that the best human brains can maintain control of the aircraft, without reference to the horizon and the ground, before going into a spin and that if I found out that they went any closer to cloud than the legal limit and got away with it,they would never use my aircraft again.

 

Having said that,this is the story I was told one day by a guy who got his AUF/RAA pilot certificate with me,owned his own Drifter,was a very experienced Xcountry flier and had done many hours flying.

 

He was flying over the Atherton Tablelands and there was heavy low cloud,he saw the hole and decided to go through it ,never made it to the blue stuff because cloud closed in around him.

 

His exact words to me were."Frank,I knew I had about 4 minutes to live,so I made sure my airspeed was correct and tried to keep the wings as level as possible by watching my compass,fortunatly there was (Name witheld) on the ground with his aircraft,he heard me and guided me through by radio"

 

So why do I tell this story?

 

Simply to renforce MAJs point of how dangerous this is and to show that no matter what some people are taught,for what ever reason, they do what they want anyway and that the instructor or the system can`t always be held responsible for the actions of a pilot once their on their own,it finaly comes down to personal responsibility and the choices one makes.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

" Flying Is Easy,Crashing Is Hard".

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Frank, you know me. Like you, I do a fair bit of flying and I guess law of averages, you'r going to have to get yourself out of the poo occasionally. I think that is what ultimatly make us experienced pilots. The one at Carlo's party was not half as dangerous as it appeared from the ground. And what about the one where you had to emergency land onto the railway line, that took some gonads !.

 

Drove down the Gilles about a year ago and couldn't get my eyes off that gorge that you guys flew up and down to get to the tablelands, call me brave !!...........

 

 

[farri]

Frank And what about the one where you had to emergency land onto the railway line, that took some gonads !.Drove down the Gilles about a year ago and couldn't get my eyes off that gorge that you guys flew up and down to get to the tablelands, call me brave !!...........

Ross ,flattery will get you everywhere ,however,you`ve got the wrong guy.

 

I`ve had more than my fair share of engine failures over the years but never have had to land on a railway line,I would never put myself in that situation,if I can`t land safely somewhere,I`m not going.

 

I know all about the guys who would go up and down through the gorge when the ranges were clouded in, but believe me,never done it and I wouldn`t even consider it for a moment,that`s why I`m still alive and never been scratched.

 

All the best,

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

 

[Kev]

All,

 

A few years ago, a couple of books on 'weather' were recommended to me by a CFI who was ex merchant navy and whose daytime job was analising and predicting weather. He was very good at it.

 

The books were: The Wonders of the Weather by Bob Crowder and

 

Manual of Aviation Meteorology by B.O.M.

 

Both make for exellent reading and understanding of how weather works. They won't tell you when and when not to fly, but they certainly help to interpret the visual clues we see when walking the earth and looking skyward.

 

Safe flying

 

Kev

 

 

[Yenn]

brentonrule, good post and anyone who has been there will agree it would be good to keep it to a once in a lifetime happening.

 

It is amazing how the wind can change while you are in the air. I once let down through a hole in the cloud, where I could see water, expecting to be out to sea and I was actually between Curtis Island and the mainland, so much for my going out to sea to miss Mt Larcom.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Don't read too much into the guide, remember it is just a graphical summary with pretty pictures of the underlying regulations in the AIP's, CAO's and CAR's and not everything is included so there is likely to be omissions such as these. If it included everything, then it would be as thick as the CAO's and CAR's.

Not so, it leaves out everything to do with IFR, Charter, RPT and aircraft above 5700 kg's. For a VFR pilot the AIP, CAO's and CAR's should not be that scary, there aren't that many sections that you need to know!:thumb_up:

 

 

[turboplanner]

I have always thought of myself as a careful and safe pilot but one mistake and not following your plan can kill you - Please be careful in bad or marginal weather.

Brenton, I'd like to hear more stories like yours - explains the sudeenness of it all, ande maybe gives us hints as to how to recognise the traps and depart the dangerous area

 

 

[poteroo]

VMC - Staying 'Clear-of-Cloud' Below 3000 Rule

 

A point I'd like to raise about remaining VMC is that it's always going to be chancy if the aircraft is flown too close to the cloud base. See this lots in BFR's, especially where there is <1000 ft between cloud and ground. It's a risky practice because the base isn't constant, and in rain, it's possible to have it much lower. A hundred or two feet lower and the forward vis usually increases well out to >VMC.

 

Rule: Worry less about height agl - drop down so you can see further ahead.

 

The other worrying aspect of flight in more marginal VFR conditions is that pilots don't slow the aircraft down and configure for the ability to execute safe and close radius turns in order to avoid getting into it in the 1st place. Secondly, it's easier to handle the aircraft at more modest speeds in turbulence.

 

Rule: Slow down - give yourself time to think, and to turn away

 

Nothing new here - but these were beaten into me as a callow youth when beginning my career in PNG, and they've protected my bum well.

 

happy days,

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes, very wise words.

 

Two girls got caught gong up a blind valley in a fast retractable (something like an Arrow) in north east Victoria, crashed near the saddle trying to turn round and were killed.

 

The investigators did the survey, took witness statements etc, and suggested that if they had dropped gear and flaps, and held it on the prop they could have turned in the valley even at that late stage.

 

I also like your priority of forward vision, and the current legislation seems to agree with that. When I first made PPL it was vertical separation only.