Remote areas

[Bigglesworth]

I was thinking of a few navs which cut across a bit of remote area.

 

I read the regs and it seems all I need is an emergency locator.

 

Is this right?

 

And is a handheld PLB enough?

 

And whats the cheapest available?

 

(I'm not too fussed about being found, I'm a survivor :)

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

A hand held PLB is more than enough as long as it's a 406 MHz PLB because as of Feb 1 2009, the 121.5 MHz PLB / EPIRBs will no longer have satellite coverage.

 

Best place I can recommend is the GME website for PLB's. try and avoid Ebay for these kinds of things because their beacons may not work in the southern hemisphere.

 

I'm doing an article for Ian which should be done over the next day or so wheich will have all of these pointers for when buying a PLB.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

[Smokey]

Hi Bigglesworth

 

There have been a couple of discussons about PLB's, I think this is the more recent.

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/forum/radios-transponders-gps-units/11006-dual-use-406mhz-epirb.html

 

 

 

Mark

 

 

 

[Gibbo]

Something along the lines of the GME MT410G is fine. GPS funcationality is a must not just 406 mhz.

 

Just remember that a PLB is a 'last resort' form of communication and notifiying someone (or submitting a SAR plan or flight note) with a 'flight following' is best practice. You may not be able to activate the PLB in case of an emergancy.

 

Remember Steve Fossits accident. He had a PLB in the aircraft with him but it was never activated.

 

Gibbo

 

 

[Bigglesworth]

Thanks for the info.

 

GPS funcationality is a must

 

I did mention I only wanted to be legal and wasn't too worried there even.

 

What do you reckon about this:

 

GME MT410 Personal 406Mhz Epirb - Brand NEW - eBay Safety Equipment, Parts, Accessories, Boats, Watercraft, Cars, Bikes, Boats. (end time 06-Dec-08 17:20:54 AEDST)

 

It is from an Aus seller......

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

Thanks for the info.GPS funcationality is a must

I did mention I only wanted to be legal and wasn't too worried there even.

 

What do you reckon about this:

 

GME MT410 Personal 406Mhz Epirb - Brand NEW - eBay Safety Equipment, Parts, Accessories, Boats, Watercraft, Cars, Bikes, Boats. (end time 06-Dec-08 17:20:54 AEDST)

 

It is from an Aus seller......

That's not a bad price, get talking with the guy, try and contact him by phone to make sure it's an Australian recognised PLB and you should be ok with that one.

 

Damn that is a good price! :thumb_up:

 

 

[HEON]

I've come to the view that a 406 should live in your plane at all times as I have had to use one "in anger". Even a "local" flight could end in a isolated area. If I had my time again I would get one with a GPS locater as more accurate.

 

If you can stretch with $'s a sat phone so you can talk to rescue people could save a lot of costs by authorities if your emergency ends well. Worked for me!

 

 

[Bigglesworth]

That's not a bad price, get talking with the guy, try and contact him by phone to make sure it's an Australian recognised PLB and you should be ok with that one.Damn that is a good price! :thumb_up:

Have spoken to him and it is "Australian stock for Australian conditions"

 

Didn't say it earlier, didn't want others taking my bargain.

 

Bought now :)

 

Thanks for all your help, western NSW here I come.

 

To be exact, to the girl who just left the area for Tocumwal (across the range)

 

 

[Mathew Ker]

Bigglesworth, I'll bite. :raise_eyebrow:

 

You wrote, "I did mention I only wanted to be legal and wasn't too worried there even." To only do something 'to be legal' sort of seems to be missing the safety point as to why any safety regulations are put in place at all. I must sound like a stick in the mud, but it seems the very reason why such regulations get foisted upon us is when we don't care enough about our own lives, those we fly with, share the skies, or who might be humping through the scrub when we do spear in.

 

I don't know what else to say other than to express my disappointment at your approach to safety from what you have posted here and elsewhere. I think it sends a very poor message to other who might follow your example. Personally I'd much rather be reading about your trips and how your Cheetah is flying now that it is complete.

 

to be such a spoil sport.

 

Mathew

 

 

[Bigglesworth]

I'll bite back

 

But first I'll say you're right.

 

Secondly I'll say quote the hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy and say the answer is on a packet of toothpicks: When the human race is so stupid it need instructions on how to use a toothpick, no wonder they need to make laws to stop us killing ourselves. Not realising they are stopping evolution, but thats another story.

 

I do realise in hindsight that Ian is probably going to suspend me and delete this thread.

 

Still, I have my advise, and my Epirb, and I don't really intend on crashing.

 

But I'm still confident I could get out alive if I did crash.....

 

I was only biting back at being told a GPS is a must. That is opinion, and while I appreciate opinion, the same people who get bad ideas from my ideas, get wrong ideas form opinion. And of the 2 I prefer to be intentionally unsafe, than thinking you are safe when you aren't.

 

 

 

[Yenn]

"I don't really intend on crashing".

 

Are you saying that some of us do. I really think that it comes as a surprise to most of us if we are involved in a crash.

 

 

[K-man]

Since EPIRBs were first available we carried one in our 4X4 even. It's not a matter of being a survivor. We can all be that. What it means is the saving of everyone's time and effort, not to mention the needless expense if we are overdue through misadventure and concerned people have to search for us. As an RA pilot I still get hammered by GA people because some of our number don't have radios, and I must say I have to agree with some of their points. EPIRBS fall into the same category. The GME you bought seems to be a good unit, we bought the same model.:thumb_up: So good luck with the Tocumwal Lass. She could end up in the NES if Big Pete or the Captain get to hear about her.

 

 

[facthunter]

Surviving.

 

Be interested to find out how you can guarantee to not be injured. Even a precautionary outlanding can result in injury, which can seriously reduce your chance of survival regardless of your positive attitude. The other factor of some importance, is that when others come looking for you, risks and costs are incurred that are not insignificant, and you will reduce these if you have some means of enabling others to find your location, accurately and quickly. Nev...

 

 

[Bigglesworth]

"I don't really intend on crashing".Are you saying that some of us do. I really think that it comes as a surprise to most of us if we are involved in a crash.

Sorry, that should have been "I do intend to crash and want the worst outcome"

 

I don't know how you could have misread that typo........

 

I suppose I'm buying an Epirb to throw out of the window so I can lighten up the load if I need better climb.

 

Not to mention a new 2nd hand better compass, and gps for backup. They're good for throwing out as well.....

 

Seriously folks, I'm not mad. But if your time's up nothing can save you. And my track would follow close enough to the road. I can get there quickly (after leaving a note at remains of plane) and get a lift to where I get mobile coverage. Actually around there has service because they need it for the skiers.

 

And if I can activate an epirb, I can dial 000.

 

@K-man thanks..... as yet she's just a good excuse to get some flying done :)

 

 

[turboplanner]

So what happens if you have to go down because you of heat exhaustion?

 

 

[Bigglesworth]

I crash and die and get my money's worth out of the epirb...........

 

Simple answer.

 

Other answer includes Lake Eucumbene..... it would cool anything down...........

 

Or 30 degrees minus 2x6.5 (6500 feet, mountain are sufficient reason to go above 5000) is 17 degrees....... Its a cold day in the alps......

 

 

[Gibbo]

I work in what you could call 'fairly remote areas' and use the code of practice for isolated workers as a guideline. (worth reading!)

 

rule number 1 - never rely on a mobile phone. (ep if a Telstra phone!)

 

rule number 2 - everywhere is remote when you have a broken leg and no mobile phone coverage.

 

Time is critical when something happens. It only takes a gust and you could be a couple of miles off course. Try hiking for 5 kilometers in a straight line across mountain range to get to a road. :confused:

 

Gibbo

 

 

[Yenn]

Looking at these posts I wondered how an area could be fairly remote, so had a look at ERSA. I hadn't realised how much of Australia was remote. Interesting to see that the Highway South of Alice Springs is not a corridor, but that is one area I hardly know I can't comment. I would have thought that Tennant Creek to Kunanurra ought to be a corridor, anyone here flown that route?

 

 

[Guest weekendwarrior]

My five cents...

 

On one hand there is the CASA definition of remote area as per CAO 20.11

 

On the other hand, every so often lost bushwalkers bodies get found in the Blue Mountains, just a stone throw west of Sydney. Remote is a very relative concept.

 

Whether you are bushwalking, on a boat, a bike, a car or a plane, if at some point you need to activate your PLB, it means you are deep into it up to your neck.

 

Let's imagine for a second you are flying say from Crookwell to the Oaks. Fairly short hop, no dramas there, and nowhere near a so-called designated remote area.

 

Now imagine that only 5 minutes or 10 miles away from the Oaks, where you can already see Sydney CBD in the distance on a clear day, the engine decides to go on strike. With Tiger country below, granted if you end up in the trees odds of surviving are not good, PLB or not. Thankfully you have done some pre-flight planning, and you know there is a private landing strip in Yerranderie, just east of the Bindook VOR NDB, and you have enough height to make an emergency landing there. You are pretty stressed out and forget to make a mayday call, or do it on the wrong frequency (or maybe you dont have a radio to start with?). You make it to the strip, but due to windshear or whatever reason you stuff up your landing. You make it alive, but you break limbs, lose lots of blood, imagine something nasty but survivable if you make it to the hospital.

 

And it happens there is absolutely nobody out there when you crash. And there is no mobile phone coverage either. Let me tell you, that place IS remote. Minutes ago in the air it looked like you were almost home, you could almost taste that cold beer waiting for you, but now on the ground you are 110km away from the nearest town, which would be Oberon, and you need a 4WD to get there when you only have a broken airplane.

 

Imagine survive a crash landing then die a few days later of injuries that could have been treated in a hospital, or of thirst, or being attacked by flesh-eating wombats known to roam the area... Forget that last bit I got carried away but you get the idea. What a bloody shame that would be. If you have a PLB, you may have an uncomfortable wait ahead of you, but odds are much better than not having one.

 

Yes maybe you logged a SARTIME and are being found rapidly and evacuated by helicopter within the hour, there are a lot of "what if" in my story but the whole idea is that risks cannot be eliminated, only mitigated, and you always got to look at the worse case scenario with as many "what if" as you can come up with until you are reasonably and consciously satisfied with the risk level you are taking. "What if" is the best approach to safety in about every industry, not just aviation. Conversely the "she'll be right, mate" attitude is in the recipe for a Darwin Award.

 

A few years ago we crossed the Simpson Desert with 4WDs. We had radios, every conceivable piece of recovery gear, medical kit, lots of water, GPS, satphone and PLB. Thankfully we didn't have to use that stuff, but once again, what if we rolled over in the middle of nowhere... In that case we were able to get help and survive until they got there.

 

I reckon PLBs gotta be one of the best safety devices out there, and with GPS it gets even better by taking all the guesswork out of SAR operations. You may die with one or survive without one, but it sure improve your odds having one, designated remote area or not.

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Famed mountain flying instructor injured in Montana crash

 

Sparky Imeson, author, lecturer, and mountain flying expert, was injured while giving tips to a pilot on the last day of a Montana Pilots Association mountain flying safety clinic at Townsend, Montana, southeast of Helena.

 

....The aircraft struck trees, and upon crashing, the engine struck a rock and bent upwards, catching fire quickly. The men forced the door open and escaped, but the aircraft and its ELT were destroyed by fire. Imeson had left his personal locator beacon with his wife. It could have told rescue personnel in a few minutes the exact location of the men.

 

Instead, they spent the night on the mountain and were found the following day. Imeson was discovered last because he left the crash site and began a descent to a cliff where he thought his cell phone might work.

 

Mistakes:

 

#1 Sparky leaving his survival vest with his wife, me putting mine behind the seat.

 

#2 We were not clear with the people on the ground where we were going.

 

#3.....continues...

 

Next Time:

 

#2 I will buy and wear a Gallet helmet.

 

#3 I will always wear my survival vest!!!!!

 

#6 Maybe most importantly, I will buy a Personal Locator Beacon for my vest, and several more types of signaling tools.

 

Crash in the Mountains

 

 

[Bigglesworth]

Remote is relative.

 

Very much so. I live only 10kms from the coast, yet you could get lost and in dire trouble about 1km from my house.

 

Not once you know the area, and are used to paying attention to land grades and directions...... eventually you'll find something.

 

But we can find danger in everything, the question is: where do we draw the line? And in my case I don't worry too much about the obvious danger; its my experience that its always the little things which do you in.

 

I don't tell anyone to try to follow my example,

 

but I can get 5 kms across a mountain range and end up where I want to be. And I'd much rather be stuck in a mountain range than in a desert. There is water there anyway.....

 

But prevention is the best cure.......

 

 

[Gibbo]

Having crossed the Tanami from Tennant to YVRD (and worked the area over several years) several times it would have to be one of the most remote and dangerous areas in Australia to operate an aircraft. That nice smooth red sand is not so smooth and nice away from the roads. A PLB and HF / UHF radio are a must as there is NO ATC coverage over most of that area unless you are above FL010.

 

The corridor between Mount Isa and Tennant creek is only ten miles wide and follows the Barkly highway. I tend to use the Barkly stock route BUT I know the area well and also know nearly every water point on the stations in the area. If I did not have any local knowledge I would not be using that route! It's very easy to get off track during the dry season due to the gusty winds.

 

A corridor could not follow the highway south of Alice springs due to the restricted airspace and prohibited areas that exist to due to the high level of 'experimental' miltary traffic in the area. The highway actually runs thru the edge of the prohibited area. I tend to follow the tracks when heading to Alice from Melbourne. I swear flying west of the highway that everything still glows a nice blue/green colour late at night.

 

Remote is relative. To me the Barkly stockroute is not remote but having a engine failure and having to wait for a couple of days before someone finds me is. This could happen 5 miles from an airstrip or 250 miles from the nearest center of population. A PLB with GPS functionality should be manatory outside of the 'remote' areas.

 

Giibo

 

 

[Yenn]

OK we are talking Remote here. Not Designated Remote Areas. We had a plane go down here a few years ago that took some finding in a remote area only about 15 miles wide.

 

 

[Gibbo]

'Remote' is relative.. Be it 50m away or 500km away. The same problem of people not being able to see or find you can exist at any distance and any location.

 

The legal defination of an 'isolated' worker, is basically someone who can't form a reliable 'communication' network with someone else. Under law a Isolated worker is subject to the EXACT same OHS regs as a 'remote' worker and the term is inchangable.

 

Always make yourself visable, be it electronic or physical BUT never rely on just one form of communication if the worst can happen! Wonder how your mum would feel knowning that her son was somewhere out there and overdue.

 

G

 

 

[bilby54]

I was thinking of a few navs which cut across a bit of remote area.I read the regs and it seems all I need is an emergency locator.

I tend to think that this post is being a bit hard on Biggles.

 

I lived in Tennant Creek and flew out of there for many years in aircraft that only had valve powered ADF's. But because we lived out there it was normal to fly in 'remote areas' on a daily basis with not much more than a map and compass. I remember getting hold of a 210 that had DME and we thought that this was the big time!

 

Accidents were mostly around the coastal areas or cattle mustering but that was also the era of Flight Service that would check up on how you were going even if they did not have to. Pilots entering the area from less 'remote' areas tended to be well prepared for the flight and the aircraft had to be HF radio equiped - good for talking to Taiwanese trawlers or Dehli tower! These days we have to rely on last ditch devices such as ELB's , mobile phones and satellite navigation which is a dangerous trend.

 

Biggles is correct in his assumption that you only need an ELB to fly remotely but how often have we read somewhere about accidents where the 'come and get me' device did not work for whatever reason. I think that these new devices are really gret things and I have most of them when I fly but think past the comfort zone and consider other alternatives to keep you alive and the search parties home for tea.