Bathurst Accident

[Ultralights]

Jetgirl, if the seats were armed and servicable, are they 0speed and 0 altitude capable??

 

even though they are not armed for civillian use to prevent Joe average punching himself out without notice, im sure still be safer to have both seats armed, but have them set up so they will both fire only when fired from the command seat.

 

 

[Guest Jetgirl]

I don't believe they are so you are right, they wouldn't have helped.

 

The canopy can be jetisoned and you can be inverted and fall out or push negative g and come out the top. BUT if he was at low level then games over folks (in my opinion).

 

In-cog-neto flies the plane whereas I don't fly it so he is better versed to comment on it to be honest.

 

Our company does not do low level stuff.

 

The damage seems to be consistant with high g low level flying according to our jet engineer.

 

Jetgirl

 

 

[Guest Jetgirl]

Playing devils advocate here, if the pilot had a heart attack in flight and couldn't activate the controls to eject you say could be put on that side, how would the passenger reach them to get out?

 

We teach people evacuation techniques in briefing. In fact we teach them both with and without power evacuation. To the best of my knowledge we are the only company that teaches it as well. All of our briefings are DVD ensuring quality and consistency. Evacuation using these methods can be done by either person in the plane.

 

Jetgirl

 

 

[Guest Jetgirl]

From The Age

 

Crash jet's ejector seats disabledReko Rennie</BYLINE>

 

<DATE>October 6, 2006 - 12:32PM</DATE>

 

<DIV =articleExtras-wrap>

 

<DIV =islandad id=adSpotIsland><BOD>

 

Ejector seats that might have saved the lives of two men who died during a joyflight yesterday were rendered inoperable, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority has confirmed

 

The two seater Strikemaster aerobatics jet, a former military aircarft, crashed in remote bushland at Windburndale, 15 kilometres north-east of Bathurst, NSW, killing both the pilot and passenger.

 

A CASA spokesman said the ejector seat could be used by military pilots to save their lives in similar situations.

 

But CASA had ruled the ejector seats should be disarmed for safety reasons because the firing mechanism uses explosive charges, the spokesman said.

 

"They're too dangerous. If you don't know what you're doing you're likely to kill yourself, so we insisted they are disarmed," he said.

 

"Also (there's) the risk of maintaining them ... it's too risky to have in a civilian environment."

 

The Australian Safety Transport Bureau sent a team of inspectors today to gather information from the crash site that ignited a four-hectare bushfire in the Turon State Forest.

 

The pilot is believed to be Nick Costin, owner of Jet Fighter Flights, which conducts joyflights out of Bathurst, Newcastle and the Blue Mountains.

 

The Strikemaster is a vintage single engine "war bird" first used by the RAF as a basic trainer in 1953.

 

Mr Costin's company is believed to own three Strikemaster jet fighter/bombers that formerly belonged to the New Zealand and Singaporean militaries.

 

They are combat aircraft, capable of carrying 2000 pounds of bombs backed up with two machine-guns and can reach speeds of 900 km/h.

 

However, use of the planes was restricted after the Royal New Zealand Air Force found fatigue cracking in the wings of its aircraft.

 

The company's website says its most popular flights are "low-level high-speed strike" missions that include a simulated weapons release, aerobatics and air combat manoeuvring.

 

The 25-minute flights, costing $2095 involve passengers wearing flying suits, complete with helmets and oxygen masks.

 

Passengers would attend a "top secret" briefing and wear full "top gun" flight gear. They would then "bomb" pre-ordained targets.

 

Because of the greater risk involved in such flights, passengers (and any victims of a potential crash on the ground) are insured for $10 million.

 

A CASA spokesman said: "The rules require the passenger to actually sign a legal waiver to recognise the uniqueness of the aircraft, that it's an ex-military aircraft manufactured and maintained to military standards not to civilian standards operated outside normal civilian aviation environment.

 

"Maintenance standards are different, whether they are higher or lower is a bit harder to say but they're certainly not the same as civilian standards and if we applied the normal civilian commercial standards to these aircraft, they wouldn't be operating, because of the uniqueness of the types of aircraft ex-military the two regimes aren't compatible.

 

"There's a lot of differences and I'm not suggesting these are poorly maintained...but they (planes) are certainly different and some of these (planes) were manufactured to have a relatively short lifespan, they were likely to get shot out of the air or blown up, not so much the strikemaster."

 

CASA says this is the first accident in nearly 20 years. "There's dozens of these things flying around different parts of Australia and this is the first accident we've had in 15 to 20 years, so it's not that they've got a poor safety record but it's a different part of aviation where people accept that the risks are higher."

 

 

[Guest Vigilant]

Its funny, I thought CASA was about safety, yes there are considerations in relation to arming and rendering safe ejections seats - we are aware of these even as civi police.

 

What I find hard to understand is that the majority of these aircraft are flown by ex military fast jet pilots and are probably maintained in the main by ex military personnel - where is the problem? These people worked with armed ejections seats on a dailiy basis and the only incident I can recall in my time in the RAAF was the ejection of a canopy of a US Marine A6 on the flight line in Darwin - and that by ground crew.

 

Would I trade the chance of injury punching out through a canopy or no chance at all - damn right I would!

 

 

[Guest Jetgirl]

Hi,

 

It is not necessarily the case that ex military pilots are flying these planes. The guy that crashed wasn't an ex RAF or RAAF pilot despite the press hype. Also they are not being maintained by ex military personel.

 

That is not to say people maintaining MOST of the SM's in the country and not more than capable and have had plenty of experience on type.

 

That is also not to say that MOST of the non ex military pilots are not superb pilots. There is no requirement for the ex military component.

 

In essense someone could see a say L29 or SM for sale decide to buy it then do an endorsement to fly it. But as trainers and instructors that sort of thing should be assessed before untaking any training of the potential person.

 

You would not get through the canopy without the explosives that are used to be in the older plexiglass canopies exploding first. The canopies we have ordered for the aircraft that come here are without the explosives of course. The glass is more than 19mm thick.

 

Jetgirl

 

 

[Ultralights]

Also (there's) the risk of maintaining them ... it's too risky to have in a civilian environment."

this is what the guys at work here are trying to do, we are set up to overhaul Martin Baker and other ejector seats, we do it every day for the Hawks, Hornets and even help out the USAF when they are in town, we have had F16 and F15 seats in our workshop, and the maintainence of the seats includes everything even putting fresh food in the survival pack, and chutes.

 

the guys in the "hot seat shop" have applied to CASA for the approval to maintain and overhaul ejection seats in civilian aircraft so they can be safely installed and maintained as fully operational ejection seats.

 

Im sure the customer would feel a little more safer taking a flight in one of the Jets knowing the ejection seat was fully operational.

 

the main reason they are trying to get work on civvie seats is there is not much work to be done on the aircraft we have in the hangar, and the shop has a lot of downtime.

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Doesn't the Temora aviation museum have CASA authority on bang seats?

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Jetgirl. Is it 100% confirmed that this pilot is not ex RAF or RAAF engineer or pilot? The media are going from that big time. Not sure where they get there info sometimes.:confused:

 

 

[Geoff]

I did a flight in the mig 15 in Rocky last year, seats were disabled had a very long briefing, but the outcome was unless you were 5 foot tall and under 50 kg25 yr old and fit which I'm not you might as well leave theparachute home. But Worth the $$$ any way

 

 

[Guest In-cog-neto]

First of all, thank you everyone for you concern.

 

The Pilot was ex RAF engineer not ex RAF or RAAF pilot as claimed. There are a few things quoted in the press which are not true and I would prefer not to go into detail about it.

 

In-cog-neto

 

 

[Guest In-cog-neto]

On topic of seats. The strikey seats are0/90, 0 feet but must be travelling at 90knots.

 

I have heardsomething about that if we did have live seats, then we will need around the clock manned security $$$$$.

 

My Dad was a fireman in the RAAF during the time of the Vampire, Sabre, Maachi, Mirage and taught thefirst Rescue course on the Hornet. He saw a few fatal accidents involving Bang seats accidently fired off by ground crew. Thats just one of many considerations about whether seats should be armed or not.

 

In-cog-neto

 

 

[Guest danda]

I have followed this discussion with sadness; there is much being said about this and that yet at the end of the day two wonderfully perfect men have lost their lives. I don’t even know them and I’m saddened by the loss because having done so many funerals over the years I never get used to the loss of life and the effects it has on the remaining family.

 

I never get used to the hurt the surviving family members feel when so many have so many opinions about the tragedy yet never witnessed the event. I don’t believe that they have recovered the to men and investigated the tragedy, yet there are those who are speculating on everything.

 

I will be praying for the family and that they be shielded from the so-called experts.

 

GOD doesn’t make junk we are made in his image that’s why not knowing these two men I can say that they where wonderfully perfect.

 

I believe the worst thing that could happen is when they don’t come to you yet go to everybody else, gossip kills plain and simple there are those who criticize the media yet indulge in the very same activity themselves

 

I don’t believe it matters weather or not the aircraft had a so-called bang seat, I don’t believe it matters weather or not the pilot was a RAF / RAAF pilot or engineer he must have been licensed in the aircraft what does matters is two men have lost their lives and their families have lost their husband, son, daughter, their dad and their mate.Don

 

 

[Guest Jetgirl]

I don’t believe it matters weather or not the aircraft had a so-called bang seat, I don’t believe it matters weather or not the pilot was a RAF / RAAF pilot or engineer he must have been licensed in the aircraft what does matters is two men have lost their lives and their families have lost their husband, son, daughter, their dad and their mate.<?:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>

 

Don

 

Amen

 

 

[Admin]

This thread went severely can I suggest that a new thread be created if it is thought that some valuable sideline subject should be discussed that may not be within the line of topic - saves me a lot of work editing and moving posts like I needed to do in this thread ;)

 

Thanks guys!

 

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Saved that off topic pic Ian. No doubt it will be needed again at some stage. I did not realise what even happened to this topic I started. I simply went to view some of the responses and they were...gone!Understand why now.Thanks for shedding light on this;)

 

 

[rick-p]

To all yes very sad when life is lost in such circumstances, particularly when it's doing something that is loved to be done by so many. The old saying "s..t happens" when you least expect it is so very true and usually when you are doing something that is enjoyable, look at Peter B and Steve I. I have lost very close anddear friends in aircraft accidents and it certainly hits home how vunerable we all are.The truth and reality of it all is that when your numbers up it's up and there is absolutelynothing you can do about it. It's the one's we leave behind that are the real victims so it is up to us all to giveourselves, families and friends a fighting chance byalways practising good airmanship and never thinkI got away with it before and I will again.As for ejection seats there is another reason they are not used on civillian aircraft and that is the powers to be would rather see a pilot have a go at getting an aircraft down somewhere less populated such as a football field than the middle of built-up area ofa city or town. We all know that theRAAF pilots are extremely well trained to the point that if they believedthat their ejecting from a disabled aircraft would causeloss of civillian life they would fly it or try to fly it to point where that would not occur.These guys in the main are fearless but is the average pilot ?Maybe Mr averageJoe would eject overSydney City proper with his plane then crashing into Martin Place killing 50or 100 bystanders.Food for thought isn't it? They allow BalisticRecovery equipment to be fitted aircraft, don't they? They use explosives andairbags in cars use explosives so I don't really think that the explosive argument is a valid one. My sincere condolences to the families and friends of the two deceased. RICK P.

 

 

[Guest Jetgirl]

Hi Rick,

 

the pilot wasn't a RAF or RAAF trained pilot.

 

JG

 

 

[Admin]

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