What to do about Poor Airmanship

[Admin]

Unfortunately I have found a problem with moving posts to start another thread when a thread goes off topic. So, I have had to move the posts manually into another thread until I can fix the forum software. here are the posts from another thread that went off topic.

 

 

 

A POST MADE ON BEHALF OF In-cog-neto

 

A message to all. If you see an act of poor airmanship, don't just (insert explitive here) gas bag about it at aerobar or on the airport, pull the offender aside and tell them "thats not on buddy", or however you think it should be dealt with.

 

Its not DOBBING or BAD BLOOD, it's looking out for everyone who flys RAA, GA or whatever. Because of one fools recklessness, we all end up looking like a bunch of cowboys!

 

Over to all for comments

 

In-cog-neto

 

 

 

[Admin]

Post made on behalf of Darrenmasters

 

"And for my troubles, I'm the branded a Dobber! "

 

Yes, we all know that feeling.

 

 

[Admin]

Post made on behalf of Ben Longden

 

Its

 

not DOBBING or BAD BLOOD, it's looking out for everyone who flys RAA,

 

GA or whatever. Because of one fools recklessness, we all end up

 

looking like a bunch of cowboys!

 

So bloody true.

 

Then there is the "whistleblower syndrome" to contend with as

 

well, where the good people get really bad mouthed by the bad people,

 

to the point where the bad people look to be the victims.

 

Ben

 

 

[Admin]

Post made on behalf of In-cog-neto

 

That is so true Ben, the media love a story that sell more papers even

 

if the inoccent are made to look like public enermy number 1.

 

Confront him with a Flight safey mag article in hand. Quiz him on

 

his knowledge of the aircraft Stall speeds at 1g and at 3g, handling

 

and why he was exploring its flight envolope so near ground(3g pitch to

 

a 45 degree climb at less than 10feet agl). Ask him how will he

 

handle the authorities if one of his students tries to emulate his

 

flying has an accident.

 

AmIbeing too harsh, because some people's attitude does'nt seem to respond to a friendly chat.

 

Discuss.

 

In-cog-neto

 

 

[Admin]

Post made on behalf of Student Pilot

 

Darren there are ways of talking about percieved problems without being

 

too confrontational. If he had an endorsment down to ground level for

 

aerobatics would you feel any different?

 

Your mate obviously has a rough idea what stalling speeds are

 

about if he's still flying. I Don't think running up to him with

 

articles about beat up's and reckless behaiviour in crash comics will

 

get your point across. Have you tried sitting down and having a yarn

 

with him? Confronting him in front of others will only alienate him.

 

Explain to him that your worried about his flying in the circuit and maybe it's setting a bad example to younger pilots.

 

If your worried about monkey see monkey do students their

 

training shouldcover just because somebody else does something stupid

 

to know their own limits. I see your avatar has a knife edge pass, you

 

would'nt expect everyone else to try that in a 150, you need to give

 

students some credit.

 

If your both working off the same Airfield it's in both your

 

interests to get along, having said that sometimes some people are

 

idiots and whatever you say it makes no difference. This game has

 

enough animosity in it anyway (just look at prune for that), we've all

 

got to make an effort to get along.

 

 

[Admin]

Post made on behalf of Geoff

 

You can't be to harsh if you save his or others lives,had this not long

 

ago people including me stood back and said to each other won't fly

 

with him! Sad to say had his son on board when he went in. We should have been" harsh"

 

 

[Admin]

Post made on behalf of In-cog-neto

 

Fair enough, point taken.../Forum/smileys/smiley9.gif

 

In hind sightI probably should'nt have used the word "Confront". I

 

have recieved advise from CASA about this, they suggested the crash

 

comic approach.

 

I see your avatar has a knife edge pass, you

 

would'nt expect everyone else to try that in a 150, you need to give

 

students some credit.

 

The aircraft owner saw want he was doing and quoted "could'nt wait to do that himself".

 

Ban me if like!

 

In-cog-neto

 

 

[Admin]

Post made on behalf of Jetgirl

 

I guess hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

I know of two people who are now dead (flying related incidents

 

sadly) and I guess I am

 

fortunate in thatI ONLY know 2 who have died flying. I know people on

 

this forum and others have known MANY more who have died flying.

 

The sad thing is, in hindsight, that tragedies can possibly be

 

avoided. IF someone had pulled a person aside, if perhaps things had

 

been pointed out to them, if people did not turn a blind eye to poor

 

airmanship, if people had not turned a blind eye to maintenance issues,

 

if, if ...

 

However it is too late for ifs after the event.

 

As one of my pilots (and then instructor), an retired RAAF Group

 

Captain, said to me early on when I was learning to fly and I pointed

 

out what I thought was an aircraft headed our way out in the big blue

 

sky "I would sooner take action to avoid an imaginary aircraft than hit

 

a real one". My lesson for this was forewarned is forearmed. What I

 

know I can work on, what is pointed out to me I am able to assess and

 

see if there is a way I can improve or not in some cases.

 

The most dangerous type of pilot in my opinion is one that knows

 

everything and is not open to learning. I would sooner take the chance

 

of making someone cross with me and point out what I knew or percieved

 

to be something dangerous they may have done (either knowingly or not)

 

and possibly save their life or a passenger as the case may be, than

 

say nothing and then discover they killed themself and possibly someone

 

else in the process. Perhaps me speaking up would change nothing, but

 

at least I know I had tried.

 

We should never finish learning and as a pilot that is especially

 

true. It is up to each of us to help imprive safety and the repuation

 

of our industry and pasttime. For if we will not, then who will?

 

Perhaps the lesson from this tragedy is to accept help and guidance that we are all students and teachers.

 

Cheers

 

Christine

 

 

[Admin]

Post made on behalf of Lambadaman

 

Well said , Christine...

 

 

[Admin]

Post made on behalf of Student Pilot

 

I was not saying to do nothing but you will get better results if you go

 

about it without confrontation. A pilot that's been round a few years

 

might not pay much attention to somebody who has just learned to fly

 

waving crash comics in his face and quoting stall speeds and theory.

 

But he might just listen if you if you talk in a friendly way.

 

Christine'squote "We should never finish learning" is right,

 

we're all student pilots no matter how much flying we've done.I fly

 

most days and have done for the last 26 years and still learn something

 

different every time I fly. I have lost some good friends to aviation

 

accidents, I have also lost some good friends in car/bike/other

 

accidents, we learn from all these.

 

We might not learn much until an accident

 

report is released, I've seen a lot of accidents where all sorts of

 

"experts" comment after the accident and know what happenedand the

 

ATSB report comes up with something completely different. We should

 

mourn for the lost and pay some respectto their families, that

 

includes the aviation family.

 

 

 

[Admin]

Post made on behalf of Danda

 

I

 

don’t care what people think of me however I will be a dobber if I feel

 

my friend or even just someone I know is doing something that could

 

cause their death like it or not live is valuable and you are your

 

brothers keeper and you owe it to them.

 

I

 

applauded Christine’s last posting I believe it should be a lesion to

 

all of us; never compromise on safety when it comes to anyone including

 

ourselves, praise GOD

 

that someone cares enough about you to come to you about something you

 

may be doing wrong the truth is they may well save your life.

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Whistleblowers are treated badly in this country.

 

For the likes of bad airmanship the best result I've found is to approach the person and have a quiet friendly word. I have tried going to CASA for more serious offences but didn't recieve any help, just the reverse.

 

There is the very odd idiot that won't listen to advice or peer pressure, I don't know what you could do then. If it was considered pretty serious then you could try approaching CASA, you might have more luck than I, there are some good people in CASA.

 

 

[Paul Willett]

Kind of on this subject, let me make an observation that is in all of our interests.

 

When I am not flying my RAA aircraft for fun, I work as an Air Traffic Controller looking after the busy areas that surround Brisbane, Gold Coast region.

 

It has been good to see an increase in the number of RAA aircraft seeking clearances in to controlled airspace and exercising their priveleges of their GA licence combined with their RAAus Pilot Certificate.

 

In general the pilots in command of these aircraft seem to be across the requirments of operating in CTA. As they should be as a current GA licence holder.

 

It is not an Air Traffic Controllers role to 'police' the priveleges of licence holders with respect to whether they should be operating in CTA. Most ATC's would not even know that even though the aircraft is operating under an RAAus callsign, that the pilot actually holds both licences/certificates.

 

If you like, what will 'mark you' for want of a better phrase is your callsign, as these are relatively new to ATC - e.g. Texan 2142 or Jabiru 4655.

 

Some recent examples of aircraft operating in CTA have left me cringing a little at the obvious lack of preparation the pilot in command has given to the sortie and the unfamiliarity with what aspects of an Airways Clearance must be read back. The reason I worry about it is that a documented history of failures to comply, including anecdotally, could lead to clearances being witheld if the airspace is busy and the controller not confident of the ability of the pilots of relatively slow aircraft to spend a lot of time transitting busy sections of controlled airspace.

 

A controller has absolute discretion to withold a clearance if workload requires - an assessment of potential workload if you like is prior knowledge of the likely time that needs to be spent managing particular aircraft.

 

If you intend to operate in CTA or in to a Controlled airport make sure you are prepared - know the procedures, request a clearance in plenty of time - not right on the boundary, submit a flight plan when you know prior - it's easy via the Net, make sure you call wit the ATIS received, and make sure you know what needs to be read back - especially the elements of your airways clearance.

 

If you do you will generate confidence to the controller you know what you are doing, and provide a good reputation for RAAus as ATC get used to handling these relatively new strange callsigns.

 

Paul Willett

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Paul, I think you will find on *many* occasions that these poorly prepared pilots that you speak of don't have the appropriate training or posess a PPL with CTA components. I kid you not I know of MANY RA-Aus pilot"certificate" holders that operate frequently in CTA without a PPL, but as you say, you don't police it, so they get away with it until something goes wrong. Other than whistleblowing and peer pressure, I don't know what anyone can really do about it. I believe you are entitled to ask the pilots name and ARN number over the radio - by all means, if you are suspect of the pilot, do it. You might one day save a life or 2.

 

 

[Paul Willett]

Clem,

 

I have my suspicions as well. Here in Brisbane Approach we have in my opinion a pretty good team of controllers who are very accomodating to unfamiliar pilots.

 

Very recently I saw one controller 'kid glove' an errant Jabiru through our airspace for 20 plus minutes - this aircraft had no flight plan submitted, and Violtaed Controlled Airspace twice despite Radar Advisories, flew in to a Military Restricted Area (with live fiing in progress) and then got totally lost trying to find a private airport that did not seem to exist. It also delayed the departure of some Low Level F111's out of Amberley Air Force Base as it stumbled out of radio contact toward the active departure path.

 

ESIR's do get submitted, but we hve no idea what follow up occurs. The cynical side of me suggests they make nice statisitcal spreadsheets for some bureacrat to wax lyrical about.

 

I do not want to see RAAus aircraft being kept out of CTA because of the few who don't prepare.

 

Let me add, that this is not a problem exclusive to RAAus aircraft - GA Aircraft Operators have their share of problem children as well, and by their sheer numbers create more problems.

 

It is just that being the new kids on the block, we are more visible.

 

Paul Willett

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

I find the controllers quite pleasant when I am flying. On Sydney Radar 124.55 if I am orbiting over my house at St Marys I will advise on radar that I am conducting airwork/orbits for 10mins etc, my height and that I will advise upon completion. This lets the controller know I am there and any other aircraft that may be commuting across 'my' airspace. Avoids potential conflict. We often have aircraft crossing our place here at low level, often rescue choppers so you can see while I make the call to do so. Many other pilots would not bother I know that but I like to be safe whenever I can. I remember once I asked a Sydney Radar controller for a radio check using my Jabiru callsign and he replied "Working ok, well as good as it will in that particular plane mate. Have a good flight". See? Nice guys...usually. I often hear even PPL ask for harbour clearances and when asked if they have paperwork in they answer no. Sometimes they will get it, sometimes they will not. As Paul mentioned, it depends on the workload and what runway they are using in Sydney at the time. I think Paul that many are not aware that ATC get a primary read out on radar of even the Jabirus flying around in the sky. They may not get rego and type but I believe it's airspeed and height? I've often heard "Caution your traffic 12 o'clock 2,500 doing 50kt. Probably an ultralight".:)

 

 

[Paul Willett]

Darren,

 

Primary Radar is usually installed around major Capital City airports as well as some military airfields. This returns from a reflection on the actual aircraft. It is a 'raw' return, so has no information on height, but can be tagged to obtain speed.

 

Secondary Radar (or SSR) interrogates the Transponder, and depending on how sophisiticated your transponder is, can return Altitude, as well as your discrete code (issued by ATC for Identification). Mode S transponders can also show a lot of information about what the pilots have selected in to the Mode Control Panel of the Autopilot / FMS - mainly larger transport aircraft.

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Good stuff Paul. Thanks for the info.:)

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

When you hear the controller say a "primary paint" it generally means that the aircraft doesn't have a transponder.

 

If they say, "tracking east at 1,500ft unverified" it means that the aircraft's transponder is operational on Mode-C (altitude), however they are not in contact with the aircraft, thus they can't actually confirm it's altitude is what it says it is... there could be a transponder / encoder error, thus they can't rely on this information for safety purposes.

 

 

[River]

Clem,...Very recently I saw one controller 'kid glove' an errant Jabiru through our airspace for 20 plus minutes - this aircraft had no flight plan submitted, and Violtaed Controlled Airspace twice despite Radar Advisories, flew in to a Military Restricted Area (with live fiing in progress) and then got totally lost trying to find a private airport that did not seem to exist. It also delayed the departure of some Low Level F111's out of Amberley Air Force Base as it stumbled out of radio contact toward the active departure path...

 

 

G'day Paul,

 

I believe I heard the entire radio side of that incident (10th Oct) and was somewhat taken back and amazed by the Pilot's apparent lack of planning, airmanship especially flying with-in a number of major control zones and navigation skills...

 

To say I was disappointed with this recreational aviator and to lasting image he made 'against' recreational aviators with-in your professional community would be an understatement.

 

Yes, of-course others both in GA and commercial make intrusion blunders too but not as unprofessional as that incident.

 

I’d venture to say we all have made, myself included, or will make the occasional (hopefully rare) error in navigation, etc but gee, let’s try to keep those errors well away from busy controlled or restricted airspaces.

 

Yours in recreational aviation,

 

Cheers...

 

 

[ratbag]

Hi all,

 

It seems to be a sad fact of life that poor airmanship seems to be on the increase. With more people finding out about the joys of flying, i can only see the problem getting worse as more planes are using the same airspace. You would think that it would be a case of "treat others as you would like to be treated" but it seems that these people just do not care or do not realise what they are doing wrong. I would like to know whether flying schools are not teaching airmanship or once these people get their license they think they can do what they want.

 

I have reported several instancesthatI considered to be very unsafe over the last couple of years but it seems to me that the relevant authoritys in these cases didn'teven wan't to know let alone do anything about them. In one case the relevant authority saw the incident in question and even admitted this to me and all he had to say was "yeah, the cheeky bugger".

 

If the people who have the authority to enforcearen't prepared to to do so then the problem is only going to get worse.

 

Something has to be done for not only the safety of these ratbags [scuse the pun] but also the pilot doing the right thing who just wants to enjoybeing "up there". The problem is that the pilot that does the right thing is seldom noticed but the one that does the wrong thing will be rembered for all the wrong reasons, reflecting badly on the rest of us.

 

Mark