Mid Air in Sydney ? Any info.

[Adrian Lewer]

hi guy's just watching the news after falling out of bed and apparently 2 light aircraft have had a mid air 1 plane crashing into a house and the occupants are alive but trapped in the wreckage. hope all get out with only the minor injuries you would expect but Gee Wizz.... not a good thing to happen.. and i hope there was no one in the house...

 

 

[Admin]

All I can find out at the moment is:

 

A LIGHT plane has crashed into a house in Casula, Sydney and at least two people are dead, after apparently colliding with another aircraft mid-air.

 

The second damaged plane has just landed at Bankstown airport.

 

The crash happened at Box Road.

 

 

[Guest Pabloako]

(Sky News).....The two planes involved, according to Bankstown flight school operators, were a Liberty XL-2 and a Cessna 152.

 

...The only company running the Liberty out of Bankstown is Sydney Flight Training Centre.

 

...the Cessna 152 aircraft was registered to a training service in Bankstown.

 

 

[Guest jerabina]

I wasn`t aware of the type of planes, but the crashed aircraft is from Basair. It had a female flight instructor on board and a female student. By the location of the crash, they were probably inbound from 2RN, a very busy bit of airspace. God bless them....

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thats terribly sad news.. a little to close to home, a student and i had a reasonably close shave only minutes before this one in the training area with a liberty that looked on its way to 2rn..

 

Thoughts are with the family's..

 

 

[Thx1137]

On SMH a bloke that was from Hoxton was saying "Now that they've closed Hoxton Park Airport, there are fewer places for these planes to land and this sort of thing will be happening more and more often."

 

arrggg. What is the bet that instead of people thinking "we need to keep smaller fields open so this sort of thing is less likely" they will think "we need to get these small missiles away from civilisation so ban them".

 

Steven.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

"Now that they've closed Hoxton Park Airport, there are fewer places for these planes to land and this sort of thing will be happening more and more often."

The most annoying thing about such quotes is that people think students and training equal danger. My in-laws in Salisbury got a flyer in their letterbox from some concerned member of the public informing them where to complain about aircraft noise from Parafield. For good measure they also noted that most flights were by "unqualified foreign pilots", implying how dangerous this is.

The fact is that by far the lowest fatality rate of any GA flying is ... flying training! CASA statistics show it. It is quite simply because we don't take risks in training. No issues with get-there-itis... This needs to be communicated.

 

Has a report been issued about the Moorabin mid-air yet?

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

I believe the guy who said that quote was an editor of a well know australian flying magazine. I will withdraw that if it is untrue but that was the caption underneath his name on channel 10. He's doing a great job at promoting aviation

 

 

[Yenn]

I saw on news.com that the situation was as posted above. The Liberty had an 89 year old instructor and a student pilot. It showed a map which showed the liberty coming into the Cessna on a converging course from the starboard side at I would guess about 15 degrees. I would think that the Liberty would be faster than the Cessna so would be overtaking and on the correct side, but too close. I could well be wrong, but it was a tragic ending for the two young ladies.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

OMG...these politicians make me sick to my stomach.. Useing such a terrible event as a chance to get points.. Shame on these people, i mean don't let facts get in the way now, both acft were from bankstown, and have been for a long time..NEITHER were from hoxton before it closed..

 

Low life's...

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Yep, them airyplanes are a worry, theys fall from the skys near every day of the week......

 

A woman has died after being shot at a service station in Sydney's south-west this afternoon.

 

The 40-year-old was shot in the stomach at the service station on the Hume Highway at Casula just after 4:00pm

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/16/2448334.htm

 

 

[HEON]

The age of the instructor should mean NOTHING. He looked and acted on TV as very much in control. BUT I can see the "spin" in tomorrows papers even now beating up his age...Poor bugger!

 

 

[Guest jerabina]

The 89 year old is actually an ATO, and was conducting a flight test at the time, I know him and did my PPL flight test with him, and if i was in the same situation, would love to have him on board

 

 

[Ultralights]

to be honest, i cant believe its taken so long for this to happen, even when i was flying out of bankstown 16 yrs ago, i was always worried flying to 2rn, or 2fc as it was known back then. think about it, at one stage it was the busiest airport in the southern hemisphere, and all incoming aircraft directed into just 2 inbound points! looking at the flight paths into YSSY Kinsford smith, the situation is similar, but due to political motivated reasons, noise abatement requirements mean all aircraft into and out of syd fly in very narrow regions of airspace! even though Camden is now getting very crowded with YHOX closing, it still has its traffic load spread over 5 inbound reporting points, bankstown just 2.

 

 

[Guest David C]

I agree entirely with you Ultralights ... If ever there was an accident waiting to happen it was near 2RN , and now two young ladies are dead as a consequence .... RIP . My heartfelt condolenses go out to the bereaved families ..

 

Dave C

 

 

[Sky Gazer]

The 89 year old is actually an ATO, and was conducting a flight test at the time, I know him and did my PPL flight test with him, and if i was in the same situation, would love to have him on board

Interesting perception.

 

In my work I deal with the elderly on a daily basis and despite their indignant claims to the contrary I know that most of them have failing eye sight and restricted fields of vison. Their reflexes - well lets face it can you do anything as well today that you could in 1998. 1988,1978,.....?

 

Please don't take offence as I am not trying to point the finger of blame at anyone just expressing an opinion that I feel many others will share.

 

Peter

 

 

[turboplanner]

Skygazer, it's dangerous to sterotype people. There has already been a CASA comment on this guy - both positive and confirming he was examined.

 

On the ABC footage I looked at, if the tracks were accurate this accident cause would appear obvious, and not related to age, HOWEVER the Coroner will be deciding that.

 

 

[facthunter]

Occurrences.

 

To my way of thinking there are more mid-airs now than I can recollect in the past. It could be caused by a number of factors. Accurate height-keeping, tracking to and over common waypoints as well as not looking out of the aircraft. If you have aircraft at exactly the same height and tracking with GPS to a couple of feet, you are setting yourself up for a collision.

 

Do pilots clear the nose constantly when climbing, or take extra care when descending in a low wing aircraft? I doubt it. Positive altitude separation in congested areas would be a good start. Nev..

 

 

[Sky Gazer]

Skygazer, it's dangerous to sterotype people. ....

I was not trying to do that, rather explain with the benefit of a professional background that there is generally a significantly marked reduction in both Acuity and Visual Fields at this stage of life . Now UNLESS you perform a full Visual Fields analysis on an individual you are merely ASSUMING they have pefect or at least adequate vision in their periphery. A VERY DANGEROUS ASSUMPTION.

 

As much as we might not want to be perceived as being politically insensitive lets acknowledge that there is a reason we don't see the RAAF allowing 89 year olds to pilot their expensive F16s or even their soon to be retired aging F111s.

 

Now - Don't shoot the messenger.

 

Peter

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Lets not forget, there was another pair of eyes in that cockpit as well. I to, will await the Coroner's verdict. I somehow feel the old boy might not fly again. He must be devastated.

 

 

[Guest weekendwarrior]

It's very sad what happened to these two young women. Next we'll hear all the nimby asking for flight training to move in the middle of nowhere.

 

Considering the medical requirements for CPL I guess it's unfair to point the finger at the old bloke. Without this very experienced instructor aboard who knows if the Liberty wouldn't have suffered the same fate as the 152 ? He may very well have saved the life of his student.

 

We have to wait for the result from ATSB, but I believe contributing factors, as already pointed out (pure speculation, I do not claim to be any sort of expert):

 

The Liberty is a low wing, the 152 a high wing. Witnesses reported the landing gear of the Liberty hitting the tail of the Cessna, so this was very likely a factor preventing to see and avoid.

 

I am not sure whether the closure of Hoxton Park is adding to the traffic into Bankstown, it was just next to 2RN, but it sure doesn't make it any better.

 

All the incoming traffic in Bankstown is reporting into either Prospect or 2RN, all at the same 1500ft altitude. And there is a lot of traffic there. Lots of aircraft converging on the same point at the same altitude... To compound the problem, often enough the frequency is very busy and you may have to make an orbit before you can actually make your reporting call. And to make it worse while there is a frequency for circuit training and another for the tower, but often enough they patch both frequencies together. Lack of controllers ? Would a separate approach frequency to report help ? Another reporting point, not sure where though considering the surrounding airspace, maybe the tower at Cecil Hills, roughly halfway between Prospect and 2RN, now that YHOX is closed?

 

Finally lookout, lookout, lookout:

 

Just last Wednesday my gliding instructor Don was hammering me into keeping a good lookout, he reckons that may save my life someday, and he is absolutely right. And it's not just for low time pilots. A little anecdote, a few months ago while inbound for BK and reporting at 2RN I spotted a twin, Duchess or Seminole or something, converging from my 8 o'clock. No immediate danger, he was faster than me so I just altered course to get behind him, no worries. Seconds later when reporting 3NM at Warwick farm, the tower asked him if he was ahead or behind the Cherokee, and his reply was uh, what Cherokee? I cleared the confusion when reporting next, but he obviously didn't see me while overtaking me. If I didn't keep a lookout, or maybe if I was flying a high wing Cessna instead of a Piper, maybe I would be the one in the news...

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

A couple of words about ‘reporting points’ or indeed even prominent way points on general nav. that may be worth considering for your flying.

 

 

For myself (providing it is practical to do so and when VMC) I seldom fly at

 

‘neat’ altitudes (eg 2,500 QNH etc. I will always climb or descend 150 – 250’ prior to the point.

 

 

This is especially so with VORs where you can assume everyone will be at their neat flight plan altitude and have their heads firmly on the dial and yet will converge at a very precise point.

 

 

In addition I am an habitual map reader and when on the last 5 miles inbound to a way point or VOR I will adjust track laterally by a NM or so to miss an exact overfly of the way point.

 

 

That little bit of vertical and lateral ‘sloppiness’ builts in a little extra safety, especially for faster traffic coming up in a blind spot.

 

 

In principle we may all dwell on the fact that when nearing an airfield we may boost our arousal in the expectancy of more traffic and a way point is really no different so a bit of extra thought there could pay dividends.

 

 

[Thx1137]

Do pilots clear the nose constantly when climbing, or take extra care when descending in a low wing aircraft? I doubt it. Positive altitude separation in congested areas would be a good start. Nev..

Initially I kept forgetting to clear the nose on departure as I was busy trying to keep a correct heading and attitude with Aldinga's bumps but these days it is better and will hopefully become a habit soon.

 

I also have a quick dip of my wings every now and then to see if there is anyone hiding in there. It is a pity that we can't fit out our aircraft with active radar.

 

Steven.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Sky Gazer, you've got a good technical point; I was more concerned about the timing given that there was an older person in one of the aircraft, and apparently not PIC at that.

 

There's some good discussion coming out here, and Facthunter I was almost squirrel gripped by Eugene a couple of months ago for not lifting the left wing of the Jab before a left turn, so you make a good point.

 

To anyone running the traffic argument, I'd say read the book by the guy who managed the Berlin Airlift or fly into O'Hare - we're not up to max levels yet.

 

The RAAF doesn't even give young pilots much of a run in the more expensive aircraft, but the USAF certainly let Chuck Yeager and Bob Hoover do what they wanted to do in front line equipment to a ripe old age.

 

And I remember in Speedway one night when a former speedway Outfit rider was invited to ride one of the top machines. A lot of judgement, skill, and lighning fast reflexes are required to get these units around a slippery track with a concrete safety fence, for the rider it's much like bull riding with the chair guy using an action similar to a monkey scratching its backside.

 

Everyone expected the 73 year old to potter around and wave to the crowd, but his wrist wound round and he finished the laps only one second outside the current record.

 

We must maximise safety, but also be objective.

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Who seen Bob Hoovers little display at YBAF a few years ago ? - aero's in a twin, and with a dead engine (or two) :ah_oh: