Why we fly RA-Aus and not GA ! $$$

[Guest brentc]

Taken from another forum with the permission of the poster:

 

18 year old school leaver:

 

Hi, I've just finished school and I've always wanted to fly for a living. How do I start?

 

CFI: Hi, glad to talk to you and thanks for visiting Fireball Flying School. First of all you'll need to get an ASIC, that will cost you $196 dollars. Its funny isn't it, no other country has them, including the USA. Ha ha.

 

Then you'll need a Student Pilots Licence, er, thats a new fee of $50, then you'll need to get a medical, thats around $200, oh then you'll have to spend money to actually hand it over to CASA and that will cost you $70.

 

Then CASA will print out your licence, but only if you pay them another $25

 

Because our 30 year old aircraft are so overregulated we'll have to charge you around $230 an an hour to learn to fly and after you've reached 1500 hours total you can apply and attend, at your own cost of course, an interview flying a SAAB which will earn you $42,271 p.a.

 

18 yosl: But, my Dad works for the ABS and he says the average yearly ernings in Australia is $66,232 p.a. and Uncle Jim earns more than that driving his tip-truck...

 

CFI: Yeah well back in my day the CPL exam fees were 50 cents each, ha ha ha, and the SCPL fees, they were the expensive ones, they were 75 cents each, to pay for photocopying or something. But today you have to pay around $110 each and there are at least 11 of them.

 

18 yosl: But, but we haven't even started talking about the actual lessons yet.

 

CFI: Oh yeah and you had better hurry with them because, and just keep this to yourself, this airport probably won't be here too long due to urban sprawl, say, you don't know of any qualified flight intructors or engineers do you?

 

Do you?

 

Hey, where did he go???

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes, very very good

 

 

[BLA82]

Too True:thumb_up:

 

 

[Yenn]

Todays news from USA is that they are introducing a similar scheme to our ASIC for airports with RPT movements. There will no doubt be a lot of attention given to that there and it could even get thrown out with a bit of luck, which would help us. Maybe!

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

You forgot to mention landing fees! A $235 lesson in a 172 at Parafield is actually $250.

 

I also love the low salaries and complaints there are too few pilots. Qantas netted $650M last year so if they really want more pilots why don't they pay for it? For 10% of their net profic they could train at least 250 pilots every year - sounds like a good investment to me if you really need them. Same with places like REX*, but on a smaller scale.

 

*Through the grapevine I hear they suspend perfectly good pilots for not showing up for a simulator evalulation wearing a tie. Yet they cut routes because of "pilot shortage." Go figure.

 

 

[Student Pilot]

I also love the low salaries and complaints there are too few pilots. Qantas netted $650M last year so if they really want more pilots why don't they pay for it? For 10% of their net profic they could train at least 250 pilots every year - sounds like a good investment to me if you really need them. Same with places like REX*, but on a smaller scale.

Because they don't have to. People have been willing to spend whatever it takes just to have the privelage for a chance at working for such organisations. For the likes of Virgin, keen captains in waiting even PAY for a 737 endorsment to be able to start on low wages. Hosties get paid more than a FO with regionals, a captain gets nearly as much as a taxi driver. Then they ask why can't they get pilots.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

In the mid nineties in California I obtained an FAA private (unrestricted of course, no such thing as a restricted one over there ) license, with night VFR, for around $3500 usd at the time. As I remember, the night VFR was an additional 10 hrs or so.

 

This included aircraft/instructor hire, all the good books, Jeppersen mostly, no landing fees, all nav books and exams, and the occasional required additional check ride with another instructor/examiner. Also included were the computerized pre-license exams with FAA in Oklahoma. Does not include the mandatory lunches with the instructors/examiners, which we all know is very much part of the process.

 

I started in C 152s, and was transitioned to C 172s in a few hours, with a class B endorsement as a student, in case I inadvertantly tangled with the heavy jet traffic going over the top of our airport, on approach to San Fran International, mostly 747s and the like. As you are running with mode C transponders as a requirement, it is an automatic infringment if you inadvertantly, or intentionally, bust other taboo airspace.

 

Most aircraft were equipped with dual King flipflops, and often, dual VOR capability.

 

I did all my navs in the C-150 to save costs. The choice of aircraft over there is much better, quality wise, than what I have seen here.

 

It wasn't out of the ordinary to re-enter the pattern at home base, with 4-5 other aircraft in the pattern, on a single 2600 ft runway. One day somebody behind me used the call sign 'Mustang 34'. Assuming it was a Midget Mustang, or Mustang 2, I was extremly surprised to see a real one go by me, as I exited the runway, in my piddly little C 152. I would have soiled my pants had I known I had one of those four bladers spinning behind me !.

 

Four months, and about 25 enjoyable hours later, I did a private pilot check ride with the best pilot examiner I could find, and upon landing was immediately presented with a "Temporary Private pilots' certificate", which is as good as the real thing. I walked straight over to another 172 and did another hours 'de-stress' time, with my new private pilots license. The real one arrived in the mail from Oaklahoma a couple of weeks later.

 

The yanks do more flying in one day, than we do in one year. They have realised a long time ago "no private pilots= no aviation scene= no aircraft sales". Why do we take 3 years, $30,000 AUD + and incredible amounts of bullXXXX, to create a basic private pilot ???. It is only a ticket to really start learning anyway.

 

 

[Ultralights]

do we take 3 years, $30,000 AUD + and incredible amounts of bullXXXX, to create a basic private pilot ???

Because its the Australian way, and a result of Airservices and CASA being required to make Money, not be a government agency to oversee the running of an industry. oh and of course, user pays system..

 

 

[poteroo]

I think the US 'approach' has a lot to do with the way aviation is accepted by the public, and promoted by both government and business.

 

I understand that it is one of the charter principles of the FAA, that 'aviation' is to be promoted by that agency. Compare this to the socialistic bureaucratic attitudes prevailing in Australia.

 

Maj.Millard.... you might like to comment.

 

happy days,

 

 

[turboplanner]

I just bought the DVD "One Six Right" through Amazon, cost USD$14.99, delivery tyree weeks, which someone else mentioned in a post.

 

Traces the history of Van Nuys airport - Sydney Polack is a flier, worked on it.

 

Brilliant film which shows the importance of General Avaiation - All pilots should buy one and keep it for situations like Goulburn Airport.

 

Soilplanner recently made a point about the unthinking attempt to shut down fuel supply at Leigh Creek - right on a critical refuelling point.

 

We cannot afford to lose the aviation network, and so while RA is having a boom due to low costs,its critical to helpo GA lower theirs to keep the network afloat.

 

 

[Yenn]

The Australian way.

 

That is where beaurocrats can sit at a desk and make decisions for our pollies. They don't usually have any chance of ever flying themselves so they want to stop anyone else flying.

 

On another subject, the lands department or whoever control rating values and land use, a few years ago, saw a few shacks on the beach in Queensland so they thought someone here is not paying for the privelidge and put the ratable value of the land owner up so much, he had to subdivide part of his property. We worked out a way to retain most of the shacks on subdivided blocks and to give the owner more cash we designed and built a subdivision. All this was in the 1970's.

 

The place is now known as Agnes Waters, or in my opinion Paradise Lost.

 

 

[Admin]

I just bought the DVD "One Six Right" through Amazon, cost USD$14.99, delivery tyree weeks, which someone else mentioned in a post.

Clear Prop - The Pilot's Discount Store - DVDs & CDs :: One Six Right DVD

Australian coded and you would have received it before Christmas plus you would be helping this site to stay available

 

 

[antzx6r]

In the mid nineties in California I obtained an FAA private (unrestricted of course, no such thing as a restricted one over there ) license, with night VFR, for around $3500 usd at the time. As I remember, the night VFR was an additional 10 hrs or so.

Wow... Anyone know what the 2008 costs might be? Its almost worth taking a holiday and getting the FAA license while you're there. Then do a conversion when you get back. Bit of a round about way of doing it, but I have a bad feeling that its going to cost me and arm and a leg just for a conversion from RAA to GA. I would also like to build an RV some day and also visit the factory. I could do the lot in one hit. Anyone with some inside knowledge?

 

 

[poteroo]

RV's

 

Given the current US:A conversion rate - you are going to be better to buy an RV from an owner who needs to sell. These unfortunates are not just in Australia - I'm just back from the US where I'm told there will be lots of aircraft on the market in 2009.

 

Have a look in Dec Aviation Trader - at least 6 for sale, and the prices have fallen around $20-30,000 in the last 6 months. IMHO - some real bargains beginning to appear.

 

RAA to GA

 

Don't see why it should be that expensive. We run both schools in parallel here, and about all you need to do extra is the BAK, and 2 hrs IF. The 'conversion' from the Jabby to a C150 is a piece of cake.....30 minutes max ....why, because the C150 is so much easier to fly.

 

After you get your PC, and look at the cross country endorsement, it's important to have the RAA navs 'complement' the PPL requirements. So, after you complete your min 10 hrs RAA, you'll have effectively completed NAV 1,2 and 3 of the PPL navs.

 

Helps if your RAA and GA instructors are the same people, so all your records are in the one filing cabinet, and your competency is a known.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Looking at curtent rates in the US, there is not that much of a bargain to be had anymore; even compared to the US, Oz is one of the cheapest places to fly and train in the world.

 

US wet rates are around $100 for a Tomahawk or 152, add $50 for an instructor. That makes it barely cheaper than here. Not enough to cover your travel, boarding and lost income anyway. No way you get a full PPL there for $3500 all in now!

 

A cousin of mine is doing a full-time CPL course, theory in the Netherlands, flying in Portugal (for the weather) and this is costing him 100K euros. This does include boarding and some flights between Amsterdam and Portugal, but really doesn't give him much more than the $60K UniSA course would give hime; CPL (with ATPL theory) with command instrument and some twin time. He's budgetting another 75K Euros for some more type ratings. If only he'd told me before he signed up and started!

 

For private flyers things are not much better, 2.7 euros for a liter of AVGAS. Wet rate for a GA plane of 210 euros, 250 for instruction.

 

The grass usually isn't all that much greener on the other side. (unless you live in Europe!)

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Can't imagine what the current costs would be to obtain a PPL in California, but I'll guarantee the BS will still be a lot less. I still internet with my prev instructor over there, I'm sure if anyone is interested I could get some idea of costs, and provide his details.

 

Obviosly the sheer amount of people over there, makes for a more active, and larger aviation scene. For instance 350 million + known people in the States. In the San Francisco CA bay area alone, there are approx 20 million plus spread over three cities (SF,Oakland and San Jose and many med size towns), that's about what we have in Australia. Also about the same in the LA area. So basically, take all of Oz's aviation scene and put it into about a 20 sq Klm area, and you have GA in California. It is the most active private flying area in the world. What brings the prices down of course is quantity sales, there are just a lot more people learning to fly at any one time in California, and it makes the whole thing more competitive.

 

However no free rides in aviation, (except reflex flap of course), you'r chances of running into another aeroplane are much greater, especially in the airport pattern area, and in what they call "bandit country". This is around VOR sites, well travelled passes through hills, that type of thing etc.

 

You really have to keep you'r head on a swivel, or you will get creamed. When I started doing a bit of GA flying here, the instructor kept asking me what I was looking for all the time ?. I replied "traffic", he replied, 'there is none' (in North Qld). Not exactly right of course, and I still look very activly for something to hit.

 

Old/good habits die hard I guess. Merry Xmas to you all, and safe aviating. Cheers