Ag Pilots? An X File?

[Ewen McPhee]

Can anyone shed some light on a mystery for me ?

 

Firstly what planet do Ag pilots come from?

 

And Does anyone know if they have radios and what frequency it is on?

 

Was doing my first nav and had just departed the airport the other day. I was downwind at circuit height tracking back towards the Windsock to set my track. Luckily I noticed a big Aggie flying right up the middle of the runway at circuit height, on his way to somewhere. We tried to call him but not a squeak in reply. I wonder if he even saw us over his big fat turbine. Do CTAF® requirements not apply?

 

While I am being a bit tongue in cheek I am interested in whether operating requirements for AG Planes are different from GA/Rec Requirements. As I do see them zipping around a fair bit (usually at 500 feet not 1000) and the pilots don't call their intentions much if at all.

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Ctaf R requirements still stand. Usually AG folks will keep lower and close in the circuit to keep out of the way. Also usually AG folks will talk and let you know what's going on, there are the 1%'ers you get in any line of aviation.

 

 

[turboplanner]

There's another thread running on the activities of RPT pilots which covers the bullies, special local arrangements, and plane to plane landing sequence agreements etc.

 

What makes me nervous about departing from Air Leg is the unexpected, when even with the friendliest intentions two aircraft finish up converging.

 

You go into a sequence of statistical probability then, when the Regulations were specifically designed to prevent that.

 

 

[Student Pilot]

It's quite legal according to regs to do a 500' circuit on an airfield not in a built up area, also because an aircraft has called downwind 5 miles out doesn't give them first dibs on landing. A person flying a close 500' (legal) circuit (remember the old idea about within gliding distance?) can be landed, clear and tied up before somebody who calls downwind 5 miles out (It does happen) is on final.

 

 

[Skyhog]

Luckily I noticed a big Aggie flying right up the middle of the runway at circuit height, on his way to somewhere.

I am shocked that he would be that high!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Quoting from the VFG:

 

CIRCUIT HEIGHT

 

For non-towered aerodromes the following circuit heights are recommended:

 

1500 ft AGL for jets, turboprops and high performance aircraft with a downwind speed greater than 120 kts.

 

1000 ft AGL for piston aircraft; and

 

500 ft AGL for Ultralights with a maximum speed of 55 knots and helicopters

 

Circuit heights for aerodromes that have specific or non standard requirements are published in ERSA. Some have different heights for night circuits.

 

The problems start when one group of pilots follow the book and another group doesn't, and all of a sudden the windscreen's full of Aerochute.

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

Ag pilots aren't the only one. We've had a couple of "near misses" with one particular helo pilot near Dongara and the various tour aircraft around Coral Bay who don't like using radios.

 

Gives them a bit of a fright when they get a big Dornier in their window at the same level.

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Quoting from the VFG:CIRCUIT HEIGHT

 

For non-towered aerodromes the following circuit heights are recommended:

 

1500 ft AGL for jets, turboprops and high performance aircraft with a downwind speed greater than 120 kts.

 

1000 ft AGL for piston aircraft; and

 

500 ft AGL for Ultralights with a maximum speed of 55 knots and helicopters

 

Circuit heights for aerodromes that have specific or non standard requirements are published in ERSA. Some have different heights for night circuits.

 

The problems start when one group of pilots follow the book and another group doesn't, and all of a sudden the windscreen's full of Aerochute.

The key word is recommended. They also recommend to have working radios, that means being able to understand calls. If your going to sterotype then most GA people will tell you "Ultralights" have crap radios, a lot of background static, output of about 1.5 watts and sound like their 80 miles away. I don't agree.

 

Working from an Airstrip it is not feasable to fly up to 1000 foot circuit height every time you go back for a load, it would take all day to do one hours work. Having worked over most of the country and from all sorts of strips I'd say 95% of pilots (That includes AG, private, RAA, commercial and Airline) work in togeather and work well togeather. As I said before you get a small percentage doing the wrong thing.

 

As an example last week I was working a fire with a 10 minute turn around (that's flown to the fire, dumped, flown back, landed, filled up and taken off to the fire again) from a Ctaf R for around 3 hours. If I'd have to have flown up and done a circuit every load I would have done a lot less loads than 15. In that time there was another firebomber, several Metros, a Bank plane and a Jab working off the strip, all worked in and nobody was held up or had to divert. It can be done.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Student Pilot, take off your Ag hat for a minute:

 

The Ag reasons and fire reasons for short cuts are financial/production - exactly the same reasons for a Qantas 747 to jump in if he could save time or a private pilot to jump in to save flying costs.

 

Without extending into the line of the other thread where this has been canvassed, there are people who work in with each other and make sure there is clearance, there are others who won't, and there are others who have an expectation that everyone will be following recommendations.

 

Going back to Ewen's issue, he appears to have been taken by surprise to find an aircraft in an unexpected position and nthat could have been avoided by some communication from the more experienced pilot.

 

On the other hand it would have been driven into Ewen to stay in the expected locations for the circuit so I find his reaction understandable.

 

As soon as sweetheart deals start and pilots start taking short cuts a visitor to the circuit will be in a less safe position.

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Student Pilot, take off your Ag hat for a minute:The Ag reasons and fire reasons for short cuts are financial/production - exactly the same reasons for a Qantas 747 to jump in if he could save time or a private pilot to jump in to save flying costs.

I didn't say myself or anybody else jumped, bullied or pushed in, I said we worked together. That's the point I'm making.

 

Without extending into the line of the other thread where this has been canvassed, there are people who work in with each other and make sure there is clearance, there are others who won't, and there are others who have an expectation that everyone will be following recommendations.Going back to Ewen's issue, he appears to have been taken by surprise to find an aircraft in an unexpected position and nthat could have been avoided by some communication from the more experienced pilot.

 

On the other hand it would have been driven into Ewen to stay in the expected locations for the circuit so I find his reaction understandable.

I agree, that's why you should look out the window and don't just rely on the radio.

 

As soon as sweetheart deals start and pilots start taking short cuts a visitor to the circuit will be in a less safe position.

If a visitor is there wouldn't he be on the radio? If he's not he should be looking out the window like the people on the radio would be as well. Do you mean by "Sweet heart" deals working out who goes where? That's what people do.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You're a bit quiet Ewen?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Quote from ewan "I was downwind at circuit height tracking back towards the Windsock to set my track."...So you were overflying the airfield at cct height??

 

 

[Tomo]

Quote from ewan "I was downwind at circuit height tracking back towards the Windsock to set my track."...So you were overflying the airfield at cct height??

Ha ha, you just love stirring up trouble don't you motz!

 

 

 

[poteroo]

Merv has made a good point there. You should be 500 ft above the height of the highest circuit usually made at your airport. (remember, if you have turbine and jet traffic - their circuit is 1500 AGL.).

 

While the CTAF® procedures seem to rule out aircraft with an IAS >80kts doing 500ft circuits, I'm advised that flying 500ft circuits, (non-builtup areas),is fine as long as you nominate this when about to roll, and/or, joining downwind with intentions.

 

Didn't 122.80 used to be aggie freq? Useful to know what they use in any particular location - and it's probably only a phone call away.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Never known of an AG frequency, only on area or CTAF.

 

 

[facthunter]

Seperate frequency.

 

Gliders use a discreet frequency sometimes, don't they? Nev..

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

I'm going to jump in here and will probably get shot down for doing so.

 

But as a Prof pilot flying all day everyday I, as most of the Ag guys do sometimes we get a bit lazy.

 

What I will find myself doing is putting myself in a place where I know no one else will be (for myself 3 miles off shore ie out of alot of water) and using the radio as purely a secoundary means : purely listening watch with no calls made as I track up the coast. Now Ag guys usually fly between jobs at bellow 500' so there shouldn't be anyone else there they will have there radios on and if you made a call they will know you are there but you won't know about him. So he probably did know exactly where you where but because he would most likely have been in the air all day to save making an extra 20 radio calls a day (not saying its technically a good thing) he just kept off the air and used his situational awerness to stay out of your way.

 

I don't know if this was the case on this day but I know it happens as I said its not perfect but sometimes it easier to let people get on with what they are doing and just stay out of there way.

 

Adam :devil:

 

 

[bilby54]

Student Pilot, take off your Ag hat for a minute:Going back to Ewen's issue, he appears to have been taken by surprise to find an aircraft in an unexpected position and nthat could have been avoided by some communication from the more experienced pilot.

I had been shooting circuits with a student in the Drifter for some when a Barron pilot from a well known cattle company called to say that he was approaching - good stuff.

 

He also announced that he was going to land contrary to the prevailing wind and contrary to the circuit direction that we were flying. Now we all know that anyone who flys a Barron is obviously a more experienced pilot so I humbly took it upon myself to advise him of both situations. :big_grin:

 

He acknowledged my call and advised that he would change to suit and using purely situational awareness, I watched him descend and land exactly opposite to both the prevailing wind and the runway that we were taking off from!:confused:

 

A downwind landing by a Barron into an into wind take-off by a Drifter and we were going to come off second best so a very low level over the fence departure from us prevented a nasty accident. The other pilot would not answer my calls and by the short time that it took me to get back on the ground to front him, he had locked the aircraft up and shot through. Lesson 1 - Do not believe what professional twin drivers tell you on the radio without checking it first.thumb_downthumb_down

 

I have also operated with Ag planes that have come in unannounced and those fella's know their stuff with a high degree of situational awareness. Lesson 2 - Because someone doesn't use the radio doesn't mean that they don't know what is going on.

 

If you have the choice, go with the radio non-chalent Ag plane over the radio blurber "professional" twin pilot - it might save your butt one day!

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Tomo.. Im not stirrin up trouble mate.. I was just asking a simple question..

 

I won't go into the "rules" as this may be seen by some as me having a bad attitude.. But we need to be carefull we are doing the right thing before pointing fingers at others.. wouldn't you agree??

 

 

[Ewen McPhee]

Tomo.. Im not stirrin up trouble mate.. I was just asking a simple question..I won't go into the "rules" as this may be seen by some as me having a bad attitude.. But we need to be carefull we are doing the right thing before pointing fingers at others.. wouldn't you agree??

I do see your point , thanks for pointing out the need to be above circuit height when crossing the field. We would have been at 1500 by the time we were back to the field.

 

 

[Ewen McPhee]

You're a bit quiet Ewen?

I have been working ;)

On call all over Christmas too

 

Have a good one Guys :clown:

 

 

[icebob]

Hi,

 

I can add to this but a bit of a story.

 

in the late 1960's i was spotting for the fishing fleet to get hours up in either a cub or a C150. On return to Devonport(Tas) the 2pm Fokker Friendship was on final so being young and smart and knowing it all i joined directly after him at 500 feet on final and called it so on the radio. The trainee in a C182 (me in the cub)doing his second solo was on downwind and me stuck between him and the Fokker, not a good place, so radioed a go around and joined normal circuit. Nothing was said to me at the time, the Fokker had long landed, the student was still doing his thing in the circuit and me red faced and shaking at my stupidity in the aero club rooms.

 

At around 4.30pm two Ag pilots landed, refuel and came over to the aero club and proceeded to coach me on the errors of my ways, a wake up call, not only did they both know about my idiot move but also told me where i went wrong with all my landings that day, do you know i did not know they both were in the area. A real wake up call about looking out side and actually seeing what is really there not assuming. Never forgot that lesson.

 

Bob.

 

 

[Tomo]

Tomo.. Im not stirrin up trouble mate.. I was just asking a simple question..I won't go into the "rules" as this may be seen by some as me having a bad attitude.. But we need to be carefull we are doing the right thing before pointing fingers at others.. wouldn't you agree??

Yes I agree merv (that's a good way of putting it:thumb_up:)...I was just having a bit of fun, but it prob'ly sounded like i was stomping you down:sorry:... which i weren't...:black_eye:

 

:big_grin:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Nah, your right mate.... no probs..:thumb_up:

 

 

[turboplanner]

So where are we with this?

 

Should we ask RAA to put out clearer guidelines?

 

Should we introduce similar recommendations to Marine rules, we it is ackowledged that poking the nose of a 4.5 m half cab into the path of a tanker which can't possibly stop or swerve to give way is not on?

 

It's interesting reading all the contributions above, then imagine we are hareing all over a 500 acre paddock at 185 km/hr in all directions with a vertical component added in and appendages that reduce vision.

 

I must admit I have some difficulty because when I started flying it was pre-deregulation and a lot simpler and black and white.