A couple of comments

[Orienteer]

The last couple of weeks i've been working of the east coast of Victoria in our Dash-8 doing Survey Ops, it's been loads of fun and have had some good conversation with our pilots about aviation, piloting and the like.

 

I had the pleasure of sitting in the Jump seat up front for a landing yesterday at Essendon on a visual approach. Watching the captain handle the aircraft made me think of how i land the Jabiru. The difference seemed quite minimal, just a different landing perspective, and a few more switches (that the FO took control of) on the final. It doesn't seem all that different from landing the jab. It was loads of fun to sit up there, and i will definately be doing again before i leave the field.

 

The second is comment i have to make is somewhat more serious.

 

We've been working whenever the weather has been good, this means i have worked Saturday and Sunday (today). The amount of traffic seems to double on the weekends and about 50% of that increase was recreational aircraft. We've been having serious discussions about the use transponders on any aricraft and what that means to safety. Today i saw the true value. With our aricraft fitted with a TCAS we get any nearby traffic indicated fairly soon. We had one aircraft (A GA cessna) come up which was VFR and on a collision course with us and was not listening in to the Area Freq. after many attempts by the pilots to contact the pilot to establish separation. An evasive course of action was undertaken by both aircraft which ended in a clearance of under 1000' lateraly and we were both at the same altitude. The other aircraft was indicated to be descending from above the cloud base, and we were close to the cloud base (we were under IFR on a survey line).

 

If the TCAS had not warned us there would not have been an aircraft aware of the situation until the last moment. We were fully prepared to abort our survey line to avoid the potential incident.

 

This made me question why more RA-Aus registered aircraft do not carry transponders? Is it a question of cost? This benefit for safety would surely out-weigh the cost involved. See and be Seen, wouldn't a transponder boost this to another level, especially since the TCAS can see through cloud? I'll certainly be chatting to my instructor about this topic when i'm finished in the field.

 

I'd like to add that i do not believe anyone was strictly at fault here, it is just my thoughts on what i heard and saw today while working. And i'm thankful that no harm came to anyone in the air (especially me!).

 

Lastly,

 

The radio calls i've been hearing today from the RA-Aus crew in the air were definately as good if not better then most of the GA aircraft we've been hearing and in contact with. Good work if you've been flying out of Yarram today!

 

My two (three) bobs for the weekend!

 

Tyson

 

 

[bilby54]

We had one aircraft (A GA cessna) come up which was VFR and on a collision course with us and was not listening in to the Area Freq. after many attempts by the pilots to act. An evasive course of action was undertaken by both aircraft which ended in a clearance of under 1000' lateraly and we were both at the same altitude.

I'd like to add that i do not believe anyone was strictly at fault here, it is just my thoughts on what i heard and saw today while working. And i'm thankful that no harm came to anyone in the air (especially me!).

 

My two (three) bobs for the weekend!

 

Tyson

You do have an interesting job Tyson and I applaud your skippers early detection and evasion tactics.

 

I can also appreciate that you are keeping with the forum rules of not blaming anyone but the other pilot was very much at fault from your description of the cloud. It never fails to amaze me how a lot of people negotiate flying (life and driving) without giving a real thought to their actions. This is justified by them saying that they have never had an incident when the real story is that everyone else is working their bum off to prevent a situation from happening.

 

Maybe you could give some insight as to what you do in the Dash 8.

 

Cheers,

 

 

[Skyhog]

If the TCAS had not warned us there would not have been an aircraft aware of the situation until the last moment. We were fully prepared to abort our survey line to avoid the potential incident. This made me question why more RA-Aus registered aircraft do not carry transponders? Is it a question of cost? This benefit for safety would surely out-weigh the cost involved. See and be Seen, wouldn't a transponder boost this to another level, especially since the TCAS can see through cloud?Tyson

Sometimes transponders,radios and TCAS can fail(become unservicable).I am not having a go at you,but the main collision aviodance system should be your eyes(even though in IFR you have no responsibility to look outside).As you say,RAAus aircraft are certainly not req'd to be transponder equipped and as far as I know you can fly a GA reg aircraft OCTA without one as well.I can understand that you have to conduct surveys from a certain altitude but if you are skirting the cloudbase and it makes you uncomfortable,maybe you can go home and come back tomorrow when the weather is more suitable.I fly RAA and GA and beleive that everybody has equal rights in the sky and low budget types should not be forced to spend half their aircraft value on add ons such as transponders and ADSBullsht.

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Two points clearly stand out in your post. From you post it sounds like you are saying the Cessna was decending through clouds and not under the IFR rules (or atc would have given him to you as traffic and or arranged seperation) so if that is true he is certainly in the wrong!

 

The other is you said you got within 1000' horizontally of the aircraft if your not visual with him but have him on tcas your skipper should really have taken action alot sooner. I know breaking off a run for traffic is annoying but having another aircraft take off your wing could really ruin your day.

 

Sounds like your have fun (and yes landings get easier the bigger the aircraft gets!)

 

 

[Orienteer]

I can also appreciate that you are keeping with the forum rules of not blaming anyone but the other pilot was very much at fault from your description of the cloud.

I wasn't sure wether the other aircraft was VFR on top and decesnding through a hole or wether the aricraft had descended through a cloud. From where i was sitting i could not see where the aircraft came from.

 

As for the comment about earlier action, the pilots were working hard to communicate with the other aircraft. The whole ordeal up to the evasive manouvre was not all that long, maybe 45 seconds, and were were prepared to abort the line, the pilots i believe made all the appropriate decisions. We were all well brifed on what was going on.

 

My comments weren't specifically about the incindent, but rather trying to make a point about the carriage of Transponders, things could've been alot different without a transponder on the other aircraft.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Orienteer, yes you'r comments and point are good. I recently did some flying in a Tecnam P92 which was transponder equipped, and it did feel comfortable to be squarking 1200.

 

Still dosen't eliminate the need to look out the window for those non TCAS equipped aircraft though. The aircraft I currently fly has no Transponder, and I do long trips often, so I would be happy to fit, and use one, if I could afford it.

 

I do make a point of transmitting regular VFR position reports, and of course keep a good scan going outside the cockpit. I flew GA in the past, and I have always worked hard to keep my transmissions short, informative, and to the point. And yes, you do hear some dooseys, even from so called commercial pilots.

 

And then you've got the guy who is always out to make the worlds quickest tranmission, which he does, trouble is nobody gets a damn word of it !.

 

It is unfortunate that we can buy the latest GPS epirb tecnology for 500 and a bit, but have to pay almost three times that for a decent Transponder. Cheers

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

And then you've got the guy who is always out to make the worlds quickest tranmission, which he does, trouble is nobody gets a damn word of it !.

We've got a Kiwi FO and every time he makes a position report either on CTAF or with Centre, he usually gets asked to "say again" Especially when our callsign is either Cusxxxx617 or our usual Rescue461.

 

We've also come head to head with some doosies! There's one particular helicopter operator who not only doesn't use his trasnpoder but neglacts to turn his radio on as well, plus some of the small aircraft out at the Abrolhos islands that get a shock seeing us at 500ft.

 

Just reassures me why I'll always be squawking when flying!

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Tcas equipped acft are few and far between when you consider the amount of overall traffic.. Transponders are great, sure, but they aren't going to provide seperation for evryone. As others have said, eyeballs outside..

 

If this incident took 45 seconds to transpire, and your skip was desperatly trying to contact him, how did he manage in this time of crisis to keep you all informed of what was happening??1000ft is only 300 odd meters.. thats far to close..

 

If you were IFR, then this guy should have been givin to you as traffic, he was obviously squarking otherwise he wouldnt appear on tcas..You said an evassive action was taken by both acft, so, it would appear he did see you, so without the expensive device he still managed to remain clear.. The system worked, and its the only system that can be relied upon..

 

cheers

 

 

[Mazda]

Yes, like most things related to safety improvement, it is a matter of cost. Transponders are expensive, and expensive to fit. If you only had a certain amount of money to spend, would you use that to fit a transponder? Or perhaps to do aircraft maintenance? Or fit a radio? Or undertake further training? Which of those would give the greatest safety benefit?

 

I'm sure most people would fit transponders if they could afford to, but it isn't always possible.

 

As Merv has said, another problem is not everyone has TCAS anyway, so the owner could spent thousands of dollars and still end up in conflict with another aircraft - even a regional airline aircraft (they don't all have TCAS).

 

Plus of course pilot error. You can fit transponders to everything and madate transponder carriage as much as you like, but of course people will forget to turn them on, or they'll have them on standby or Mode A.

 

There's no doubt transponders and TCAS give a great safety improvement but unfortunately it won't give absolute safety.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Merv pretty much said it as it is.

 

Ever notice when there is a conflict or collosion between two large aircraft equipped with the lot ?. IE: Qantas or RPT. Our great provider (sic) CASA, generally comes out with the comment " It is the responsibility of the pilots involved to maintain a 'see and be seen' watch at all times " Like hullo !........why the hell do you think aeroplane have windows ? Covers thier butt one more time I suppose........

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I think I heard you Tyson out in the Dash 8 yesterday East of Wilsons Prom. I was nearby in Cirrus SR20 VH-CSS heading to Flinders Island and back. Weather was perfect later in the day (pics to come). Cloud on the way there was at 1,800ft. It's a long way over water that 93 miles to Flinders!

 

What are you surveying for out there?

 

I also noticed a Fugro operated Diamond Twin-Star at Flinders. It had the huge pole out the front and 4 POB which surprised me as they were possibly operating down low.

 

 

[Guest Cloudsuck]

G'day Tyson,

 

 

I have always had a transponder in my RA aircraft even before I had a PPL and was able to enter controlled airspace. I made the decision to spend the money for exactly the same reason you outline above. They are great and I will always have one.

 

 

For the guys who go on about 'see and avoid', they are somewhat right, however, you have to first see to avoid. I regularly get traffic advisories from radar about traffic in conflict and we pass each other and never see each other. I think that we would all be surprised how many near misses we have had and didn't know about it. See and avoid is fine, but just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it was not there. Transponders are great, and are a real safety feature. I will not own an aircraft without one.

 

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

This has been a real valuable thread started by Orienteer, and supported by all the others who have contributed, on a very serious and important subject, which affects us all, every time we aviat.

 

Bottom line I suppose,.... as I see it anyway, is as follows................

 

If transponders and TCAS were free, we would all have one.

 

The majority of mid-airs occur within 10 NM of an airport, (but not all).

 

If you sit there fat dumb and happy without looking out the window, or making regular VFR position reports, you might just get a big scare one day.

 

And last but not least, it is nice to see the "upper end" of aviation acknowledging finally that we who fly 'Recreational' aircraft are now a factor in the big pitcure, instead of wishing we would just 'go away', as in past years.

 

That's my lot folks !

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Remember the recent accident at the inbound reporting point near YBK. it is a known congestion area and 4 set of eyes missed seeing the other aircraft. sometimes every available aid is valuable in collision avoidence. just a shame that the purchase of this equipment is cost and fittment prohibitive to most. But then if you can afford a 100 grand aircraft then what is an extra monthly payment or two to have it fitted. Even tho all of us at the moment are only day VFR the installation of nav lights and strobes would be an affordable and sensible alternative as well as a backup for your see and avoid senario.

 

ozzie

 

 

[hihosland]

Tyson did say

 

""Good work if you've been flying out of Yarram today! ""

 

I know of at least 4 rec aviation pilots who were flying at Yarram

 

thanks for the compliment

 

Davidh

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ozzie, there were 4 sets of eyes in that incident, but there were also 2 transponders sqwaking no doubt.. Didnt make one scrap of differance when the see avoid thing broke down..

 

 

[Yenn]

Orienteer. You didn't say what altitude you were at, but someone who was in the area suggested 1800', so there is an obligation only to be clear of cloud. Was that Cessna descending through cloud illegally or was it VFR legal.

 

I fly around quite a bit of cloud in Central Qld coast and always feel most vulnerable if close up under the cloud and below 3000' There is nothing to stop an IFR aircraft popping out of the cloud and if I am too close there is little time to see and avoid.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Four sets of eyes, two should be looking, the other two probabily trying to work out what all the funny round things are, how many were actually looking ? The result tells us maybe none. In the U.S. VORs, reporting points, or heavily trafficed areas are referred to as "bandit country" and you generally double your watch in those areas.

 

Hey OZ I got stuck on the Phantom and biggles when I was a kid, who is the new little funny guy ?

 

 

[bilby54]

We had one aircraft (A GA cessna) come up which was VFR and on a collision course with us and was not listening in to the Area Freq. after many attempts by the pilots to contact the pilot to establish separation. The other aircraft was indicated to be descending from above the cloud base, and we were close to the cloud base (we were under IFR on a survey line).

Have you fella's really understood what Orienteer was saying here? The Cessna was descending through the cloud base without IFR clearance. This is clearly a blatant disregard for the safety rules that prevent this type of accident. Transponders alone do not help with separation but will only work with TCAS.

 

If both aircraft took evasive action and only missed by 300 metres then it must have been a close call. I work with Qantas, RFDS and several turbine aircraft without mishap and without a transponder on a proffesional basis that each one respects. Blasting through cloud is a recipe for disaster and Orienteers Skipper did the right thing to avoid an accident.

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Looks like we may need a little 'clarification' on this one

 

45 seconds in a dash 8 covers NM ? 45 seconds in a cessna covers NM ? ...head on distance apart ?

 

Obviously somebody had the latest crystal ball panel mount from Garmin that showed cloud ahead..............

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Hey OZ I got stuck on the Phantom and biggles when I was a kid, who is the new little funny guy ?

He is "Bender" from the TV show "Futureama" His favourite comment is

 

"well bite my shiney metal ass"

 

as for the anti collision maybe this new system they have been wanting to bring in will be the go to avoid this. what do they call it?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

'Hey well bite my shiney metal ass'......good one

 

 

[Guest pgpete]

say no to transponders.

 

The use of transponders and TCAS and radio for separation all sounds fine until you realize there are aircraft that fly no radio, no transponder, and no hope of fitting one.

 

Hang gliders and paragliders both motorized and not fly OCTA and usually use UHF CB. There is no power supply to power a transponder.

 

and due to the nature of transponders there will probably never be a portable unit made for PG / HG

 

 

[Guest Cloudsuck]

The use of transponders and TCAS and radio for separation all sounds fine until you realize there are aircraft that fly no radio, no transponder, and no hope of fitting one.Hang gliders and paragliders both motorized and not fly OCTA and usually use UHF CB. There is no power supply to power a transponder.

 

and due to the nature of transponders there will probably never be a portable unit made for PG / HG

Yes and there are many who fly 'in controlled airspace' without a radio and without a transponder and without a clearance. That is why I gave up PG. PG and HG are the cowboys of the sky and need to be reeled in.

 

 

[Guest Cloudsuck]

This recently happened to me. (one of many).

 

Radar: Aircraft in the park ridge area at 2500 tacking south, Brisbane Radar.

 

Me: Brisbane Radar Tecnam 1234 is Park Ridge 2500 tracking south direct Beaudesert.

 

Radar: Stand by. Alpha Bravo Charlie, traffic is a Tecnam two miles south east of Park Ridge water tower at 2500 tracking south and at your 1 o'clock.

 

ABC: Alpha Bravo Charlie received traffic have him on my TCAS.

 

Radar: Tecnam 1234, traffic is a Cessna Citation jet inbound to Park Ridge water tower on descent 2500 at your 1 o'clock.

 

Me: Copy traffic, Tecnam 1234.

 

MOMENTS LATER.

 

Radar: Alpha Bravo Charlie now clear of traffic, contact Archer tower on 118.1 g'day.

 

ABC: Archer Tower 118.1 g'day.

 

I saw the jet pass about 1NM to my right at zot speed and at my altitude. If I didn't have a transponder and he didn't have TCAS and we didn't have Brisbane Radar, at a closing speed of maybe 365 kts (657 kph), by the time I would have seen him , I would not have been able to avoid him.