Forced landing without power

[Guest Pioneer200]

Hi, just wondering how many of you forum members have suffered total engine failure in flight and have had to force land

 

If so

 

1. Were you at a manageable height to carry out the forced landing?

 

2. Were you flying over landable terrain?

 

3. What plane were you flying?

 

4. What engine/what happened to the engine?

 

5. Would you have done something differently?

 

Just interested to hear some outcomes so we can all learn from them

 

Heard of a local Rans coyote that had total failure up front 2 days ago but was successfully landed with no damage.

 

Cheers

 

 

[jcruffle]

I had a catastrophic engine failure in a VERY early Jab years ago. The engine had almost reached full life and the plane had been used for training (this was a training flight and the student's first lesson.)

 

I had partial power for a minute or so until a connecting rod failed and that put an end to it: oil everywhere and a very still fan. I was over some paddocks and completed a successful forced landing. The engine was changed the next day and I flew it out.

 

The important thing in my opinion is to not waste time in planning your approach. Get onto a downwind quick. You are then in familiar territory. Speed is vital. You need the best glide and not too fast over the fence - you need to get on the ground at your aiming point; not float over it.

 

I was at 1500 feet so I had plenty of time. Low flying cuts your options big time.

 

Oh and the student came back next week.

 

John

 

 

[lazerin]

John, I hope I'm half as calm as you when I do get an engine failure. Being a student still, it's one of the things I always dread in the back of my mind.

 

 

[Tomo]

Oh and the student came back next week.

That probably was the best forced landing training the student ever got...

 

 

[Tomo]

I always dread it in the back of my mind.

Expect it to happen...that way your always prepared for when it does...;)

 

might sound silly coming from me who has done very little flying as yet, but I know it works for other things...besides that's all part of your flight planning isn't it...

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Yep, late down wind, fully closed throttle prior to turning base, engine died. Tried restart, flat battery. Put out Pan call and initiated a continuous curve approach, leaving flaps up. Twas touch and go as to whether I'd clear the boundary fence but just scrapped over and touched down about one meter onto the graded runway. Pulled off asap. The plane was an LSA Jab and the problems were, carby icing 'cause I considered it not necessary that day, and a blown fuse in the charging circuit. The is no indication that you're not charging. Had to tow the plane back to the hanger. We always use carby heat nowaday, irespective of the weather conditions.

 

 

[facthunter]

Priority.

 

Don't forget , it's AVIATE, NAVIGATE and COMMUNICATE, in that order. Would be a pity to make beaut radio calls , and land on the fence. Nev

 

 

[jcruffle]

That probably was the best forced landing training the student ever got...

Yes. From the next lesson on, he was always on the lookout for a good forced landing area should the worst happen. That's not being paranoid, just good airmanship.

 

Also, practice makes perfect.

 

John

 

 

[Ultralights]

ive had 2, one in an LSA jab on mid final, pulled throttle back to idle, engine stopped, hit the starter and nothing happened, just continued approach as normal, and rolled to a stop on the taxiway exit, problem turned out to be a broken throttle stop bracket, allowing the throttle to go to shut off position, and not allow it to open again.

 

second was when my instructor during my instructor rating, my instructor asked if i had ever had a real engine failure, i said sort of (refer above incident) and then he said, well, your having another one, and killed the ignition, we were in a J230. fortunatly we were at 4000 ft, and about 5 miles from the field. no problem with a glide that far out.

 

key to a good glide is keep the speed at the best lift/drag ratio speed, and keep all turns balanced. remember AVIATE, NAVIGATE AND COMMUNICATE. in that order.

 

 

[Adrian Lewer]

On my second solo nav my fiance asked me what would happen if the engine stopped. instantly o snapped the throttle shut and she said "what the hell are you doing" I replied "good practice you sprung it on me, lets see if i can do it" Kirsty asked if i had done these before of which i replied "nope when me and the Instructor practice he totally stops the engine", this gave her the confidence to continue, with the pax settled, went through the FMCOST checks and found a paddock, gave the necessary "FAKE" calls and lined up, got kirsty to pull off the glasses and thongs, "pretend to pop the door", gave the usual briefing, got to the threshold Carb heat to cold, power to 50% level off engine all good and power off and away.

 

Very good practice for me, Kirsty was impressed how they flew without an engine (or at idle). Not relay legal to practice emergency procedures with PAX but in my opinion all was safe, it gave me a genuine practice session and Kirsty now knows you do not need an engine to fly.

 

 

[facthunter]

engine out.

 

I suppose the thing to realise is that when the engine fails that the aeroplane does not fall out of the sky. It is still controllable. whether you subject your fiance to the revelaton of all of this is up to you. If she is still there at the end of the day, you have a very special woman in your life. You are a lucky man..Nev..

 

 

[Tomo]

I suppose the thing to realise is that when the engine fails that the aeroplane does not fall out of the sky.

Out on the Plains where I am, it basically boils down to which neighbour you'd like to visit...It's a great place when it comes to engines stopping on you I would imagine, farm roads, empty padocks, the only thing that you got to really whatch is the network of cobwebs...(meaning power lines):big_grin:

 

 

[Adrian Lewer]

Yep I think she is special. On my second Nav It was Kirsty's first flight in an Airplane. It took 2 months of careful planning to get her up there. She helped with the planning, where we where going, Etc. Kirsty also helped when i realized we where not where we where suppose to be but aiding in navigation, holding the controls for 2 minutes while i had a drink Etc.

 

At the end of the flight, a first timer could, read a map, use a GPS, had first hand knowledge of engine failures, fly straight and level, spot airports. Man i can not believe how Kirsty took to it, like a Pro. BUT I did have to smack her hand when she went to turn the fuel pump off on cross wind. I let her know the only switch she could touch was the landing light nothing else but she got excited and well...... monkey see monkey do, the monkey decided he did not turn it off this time i might have to do that for him.....

 

Will she fly again. Yep BUT she was turned off by the heavy turbulence we encountered on the first day, Said nothi'n short of me dying in flight she does not like touching the "Joystick" as she called it. but said she thoroughly enjoyed it and will fly again as long as the sky's are blue. We will probably fly to NatFly together.

 

Anyway sorry for hijacking the thread.

 

 

[HEON]

While we have practiced quiet landings when it happens for real it is very easy to get quite involved as the pilot and neglect to keep your passenger informed.

 

When it happened to me I was so involved in landing I neglected to talk to my wife on what I was doing which ment she was terrified and may not fly again.

 

My defence that I was over the Simpson Desert (lots of sand hills) and there were things to do has not helped my cause.

 

As an aside; no damage occured; Canberra based rescue organisation was very helpful (gave sat phone number in mayday...think they liked to have a "talker" after the landing!); very easy to have a grog bill larger than food bill after the event!

 

 

[Yenn]

My most recent one happened at Old Station Fly in 18 months ago. Just turned base and the engine stopped, did a restart in flight and landed, touch and go and the same thing happened next circuit, so I just left it dead and landed, then did a restart while slowing down and I don't think anyone noticed the stoppage. I was pretty sure it was caused by the slow running being set too low and very cold conditions. We should always be ready for an engine failure in the circuit, especially when the power is pulled off, so always be ready to glide in from downwind.

 

 

[poteroo]

Only had one in a Jabby, and it was with a student, and, we were going home after having been practicing......guess what..... forced landings! When you have 400 acre wheat paddocks under you - it's not exactly a difficult job.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

How did I know there would be a lot of Jabs responding to this one ???.....

 

Had one early one morning in my 447 powered homebuilt biplane. Launched about six for a relativly short (60nm) flight to a fly-in. About 15 mins into the flight, relaxing at cruise, watching the temps stabilize, when the engine started backfiring badly and continuosly. Looked over the side, three large beautifull fields. Called mates back at base to let them know I had a problem, we had all just fitted Icom hand helds that week, for a long forthcoming Xcountry, and had established our own personal frequency. They were taxying to go the same fly-in.

 

Played with engine down to 1000' whilst maintaining best glide, then proceeded to select a field (the only one with a house nearby) and set up for it. Can't recall if I shut down engine, or if it just stopped. Didn't matter after I had decided to land. Landing no drama, nice and soft if you have good speed, and know how to slip if you need to get rid of excess height.

 

I highly recommend the following:......

 

Know you'r aircrafts' best-Glide speed, and maintain. Don't get too slow..ever. (aviate)

 

Don't mess with you'r engine down to 200' and forget to find, and achieve, a good landing site. Pick one early and head for it. (navigate)

 

If you've got time, let somebody know what is going on. (communicate)

 

If you don't know how to slip an aircraft into a tight spot if neccessary...learn to.

 

I have had a couple since, but this was my first total-failure requiring an out landing, so I remember it well. The 447 had spat the top ring off of the piston, so there was only one direction we were going that morning, and that was down !....

 

Low level power failures after take off are a whole different kettle of fish, but above all always 'FLY THE AEROPLANE!!!!.'

 

.

 

 

[sain]

Closest I've gotten is on a solo flight after some forced landing practice. The forced landing practice had not gone well - among other things I picked a particularly bad field, with lots of rocks, fences, power lines, livestock, trees, etc etc. right next to a perfectly good and deserted road.

 

Anyway, because of that I decided I needed more practice before the next instructor lesson, so I was tooling around in the training area "suprising" myself occasionally by pulling the throttle off at sort-of random times. On the 5th attempt as I was putting the power back on at 500ft AGL (after managing to get really well lined up for landing in a paddock) the engine coughed, spluttered and mostly died. Naturally enough I freaked a bit, but the checks came through and I found the carby heat off straight away. As soon as it was applied the engine ran fine (it hadn't quite died).

 

I left it on for a couple of minutes as I headed back to the airfield, where I did a couple of touch and gos and a couple more "engine failures", all without incident.

 

 

[Matt]

How did I know there would be a lot of Jabs responding to this one ???.....

he he he, I was going to point that out but I'm not sufficiently flame or flak resistent ...now what "conclusions" can be drawn from the stories so far:

 

1. Jabiru engines fail more often than other engines

 

2. The number of Jabiru owners & flyers on this forum are greater than other types

 

3. Jabiru owners & flyers on this forum are more vocal than other types

 

Food for thought...another thread on here is talking about media portrayal of RA-Aus and "ultralights", a quick read by some unprofessional report of this thread combined with "conclusion" number 1. above would be more cannon fodder for the headline seekers.

 

Funny how we as pilots will read and no doubt learn something from the stories in this thread but an uneducated, ill-informed or just plain nasty individual could completely skew the purpose, intent and context and make a flamboyant story about the safety of either the Jabiru specifically or ultralights / RA-Aus aircraft in general.

 

All that aside, it's a great thread and some good insight provided. Personally I've not had an engine failure resulting in a forced landing, the only (unexpected) engine failure suffered was during an inverted run whilst validating the operation of the inverted oil system in our CT4...seems the oil pressure and delivery was fine, the fuel system needed some minor attention though! Simple rectification by promptly rolling upright, fuel pressure was restored and she fired back into life. A might disconcerting to have the engine stop while inverted I must say.

 

 

[djpacro]

Disconcerting the first time, Matt, but normal behaviour for an aeroplane which doesn't have an inverted fuel system. You have fuel injection so it works for 1/2 minute or so. Carby's die immediately so those guys get used to it pretty quickly and only get disconcerted when the prop stops - can lose quite a bit of height to get going if a starter is not fitted.

 

Yours must be the only one in that series with an inverted oil system.

 

 

[Matt]

Hi David,

 

Spot on with the 1/2 a minute or so, having reviewed the video after that flight it was about 28 seconds. And spot on again with the inverted oil system, our is (apparently) the only CT4A in Australia with the inverted oil system. It's a Christen system that was installed in our aircraft during it's life at ARDU. The system was installed for the erect and inverted flight testing in the early-mid 80's and remained in the aircraft thereafter.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I have been switching my engine off for years. Not idle, reaching over and knocking the switches off, so the prop stops. After a couple of successfull forced landings in the 2-3 hundred hour period, I realized that there are particular skills required to successfully pull off a successfull deadstick landing. And those critical skills which may turn a potentially bad day into a real good one, are best learnt deadstick, not at idle.

 

My reasoning is as follows:....

 

An aircraft with the prop stopped feels, and flys differently, than at idle...no dirty air over the tail, and no noise.

 

Valuable skills are more easily learnt in a controlled situation, than in a first time, highly stressed, real emergency situation.

 

Once that prop stops there are no if's and butt's, you are coming down, and accurate decisions do need to be made.

 

There are rules !.......

 

Always shut down within easy reach of a suitable landing site, or over the top of a suitable low-use airfield.

 

Best done in low, or nil wind conditions, onto a large area, or long strip.

 

Plan B should always be a suitable option, should plan A not run as expected, and the aircraft should be set up right after shutting down, for an inflight re-start if it become necessary for safety.

 

Do not even think of doing this, if you'r abilities, or aircraft, are not up to the exercise.

 

Why would you even want to do this ?...........

 

Allows you to feel, and know what you'r aircraft is capable of/not capable of, in a no- power glide situation.

 

Aircraft fly,and feel different deadstick, and few of them go back up.

 

Significently increases you'r pilot abilities, and you'r ability to pull off a successfull emergency deadstick landing, into a suitable area.

 

 

As I was saying, I wouldn't recommend doing this unless you have at least one successfull, emergency landing under you'r belt. You know by then that you possess the ability, now you just want to refine, and add to those abilitys.

 

Before I go further, I am aware that to some in the GA faternity, this is considered by the authorities to be "reckless and unsafe behavior", they are also the one's who forbid a complete power shut off during you'r instruction, or training.

 

I do not believe that when you are actually looking at a stopped prop, is the ideal time to learn how you'r plane flys, and behaves, with no power. An idle power approach is nothing like a non-powered one. I also believe that this is the reason many GA power-off landings end unfortunatly in the negative, in somebodys backyard.

 

I started off doing early morning power-off landings in my homebuilt biplane. I had already done two real ones in the same aircraft, one from 1500' the other from 300' , successfully. I would get up early before any traffic, take off, and climb straight out to about 1200', without looking down to see where I was. I would not be much more than a Klm away from the airport, when I shut the engine off. Being dairy country there were many suitable alternative sites, around the airport.

 

The exercise would basically be to set up a suitable approach, so that you can accurately put the aircraft on the runway where planned, or very close to you'r chosen point.

 

Some mornings I would do four in a row. On one I got out of kilter, and realized at about 400' that I was not going to make the strip as planned. I had to adjust my approach and landed instead on a cross runway. This is all part of the process of decision making, and re-decision making. And believe me, the mind, (and heart) are both working overtime to pull off any successfull emerg landing.

 

Later with my 582 certified Drifter I did many deadstick landings down to the runway, as the aircraft is well suited, even with somebody in the back. You must keep good speed going in the Drifter as it is more draggy, to achieve a good soft flare. Some days I would shut the Drifter off at 5000' and fly down to 1500' where I would perform a restart, then land with power. The 582 always started beautifully when required. I have sold that aircraft now, and never did get to try a real one in it, but I reckon I would have been ready.

 

Next time when you are downwind at the required 1000' abeam the runway threshold, in you'r Warpborer Mk4, reach over and shut the engine off, and see if you can plant it nicely on the runway where you want to. You just may have to do it one day.

 

And finally a good thing to remember when chosing a route is,...'If you don't want to land in it , don't fly over it !.

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

Some very good tips Major! Lots there that I'll keep in mind next time I do engine failures! I'll fly with you any day mate!

 

Today I knocked up my 6th and 7th hour of training doing.....engine failure on take off and engine failure on base and on crosswind.

 

I was very surprised with the time I had to make decisions and come up with a plan B. And all of this was done between 500ft and 900ft AGL.

 

It's definatly something to be practiced on a regular basis!

 

 

[Yenn]

Does anyone know if the Jab engines can be damaged by backfiring in the exhaust if they are shut off and then re started, bearing in mind that they will keep windmilling and sucking in fuel, even though they are not running.

 

Most GA aircraft are shut down by using fuel cutoff, rather than killing the ignition. This means a restart is not quite as quick as for a Jab engine. It is an interesting experience to re start a Cessna with a stopped prop, by pushing the nose down.

 

 

[facthunter]

Shutting down engines.

 

Great stuff this discussion, but I hope it doesn't start a spate of people trying it, because I don't think it is legal. ( I don't make the rules, so I'm only the messenger)

 

The only times that I have had an inflight shutdown, is intentional (in training) with inflight restart (windmilling). in singles, and numerous REAL and practiced with multi's.

 

As Yenn says, It's an interesting experience to restart by putting the nose down. You often have to go vertical so have plenty of height and watch your Vne. If your engine has a reduction gear (such as a Rotax, forget it , a rotax will never turn over,without the starter.).

 

The way I read some of the responses, the engine failure (or stoppage) happens when the throttle is retarded to idle. Surely this indicates some non-adherence to proper pre-flight checks. You are supposed, during taxi, to pull the throttle to idle and check the reliability of the idle.

 

IF THE ENGINE STOPS, IT IS CONSIDERED UNSERVICEABLE.

 

Re the possibility of a backfire with a Jab. since the engine is stopped by cutting the ignition so fuel is still going through the engine, vapourised and in a hot muffler, VERY LIKELY, I would say, if the engine windmills, though there will be some there anyhow, ignited by the restart, it may split the muffler.

 

It might be worthwhile to mention here, that a restart should be done with the throttle closed or nearly so. If you accidently ran a tank dry, close the throttle prior to selecting the other tank, to make it a bit easier on the engine. ( Unless the ground is coming up where you do what you have to). Nev..