Forced landing without power

[Guest pelorus32]

Nev is quite right.

 

Engine Off operations in RAA can only be conducted with a CFI. See the Ops Manual Syllabus section right at the end.

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Ditto with the Major on shutting down. same rules basically. but even tho i nearly always land with both engines off in the lazair, as it just wont land with them running i have also done at least one long deadstick landing in most of the other heavier aircraft that i've flown for a while.

 

But i do have more than 40 actual engine failures nearly all in the bad old days. most simple things like plug leads and carbs falling off fuel system problems. one prop and pulley came adrift never to be found. Had plenty of intentional fuel exhaustion we only had 5ltr tanks the demo machines and we had out and back contests most of the time never made it back over the last fence. a lot of the self taught guys made a contest out of deadstick spot landings.built your skills as those early engines often went quiet. the only thing that really concerns me in the real senario is fences and power lines. the condition of the surface is something that you just have to deal with. dodging holes and logs so learning how to manouver your aircraft at slow speeds is a must. hitting a bush is better than hitting a tree. better to ground loop and rip the gear off than going thru a wire fence in a pusher type. large gum tree is softer than a northern territory termite mound landing on water with fixed gear is gentler if you lock the brakes on. and if it all goes to crap keep flying it until the dust settles.

 

ozzie

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ozzie, mate, holy snappers... At what point do you say enough's enough, im not flying anymore.. 40 engine failures, did you ever have aflight with the fan turning on approach??..

 

Good onya mate, :thumb_up:

 

 

[Guest brentc]

IF THE ENGINE STOPS, IT IS CONSIDERED UNSERVICEABLE.

Almost! In the GA world, it's always been in the syllabus to attempt a restart and quite often they do spring to life again!

 

 

[facthunter]

Engine stall.

 

I'm only talking about serviceability in the context of an idle test during taxi. NOT IN THE AIR. If you can restart it in the air you do so, provided you do not neglect to AVIATE. The old rule , "don't fly over it unless you can land on it", is a good thing to bear in mind. When you are managing a flight, (which is what you are doing when you are PIC) whilst you cannot always comply with this desireable situation, you can bear it in mind as a philosophy of risk management. and plan your route/ altitudes with it in mind..Nev..

 

 

[icebob]

Hi,

 

Mine was February last year in a Volkplane(VP-1). Cause of engine failure, no electrical power, defective fiberglass battery box allowing the battery to fall through and fuse the electrical cabling.

 

I was at 65kts at 4000 at the time and 0.7kms from the paddock i took off from, maintained 55kts did a look at the paddock before the one i took off from and thought too long a walk and tried to stretch the glide, I know a gutsy/foolish thing - the old got to get home mentality. Well ended up short, landed in the paddock about 8 meters short of the fence at 40kts, no brakes and one almighty bounce on the rough ground, left wing and left undercarriage caught in top strand of fence and broke off, the 2100cc VW engine parted company from the firewall, my helmet went clung on the roll cage, tail half snapped off. Fuselage and remainder of tail stopped about 4 meters into the home paddock. I got out sore and red faced while the aircraft bits in and around the fence caught on fire(engine rolled back to the fence and it or the auxiliary gel battery,set some grass alight after spraying fuel everywhere). That left me with about 1/2 of a aircraft and a "thing" about fences.

 

things i would do differently.

 

1. more thorough maintenance checks particually those hidden items.

 

2. land straight away the location below me was fair/good.

 

3. review thoughts and logics of event to improve the next outcome.

 

4. Overcome "fear" of fences.

 

5. Get a flight review.

 

Bob.

 

 

[gofastclint]

Hi,Mine was February last year in a Volkplane(VP-1). Cause of engine failure, no electrical power, defective fiberglass battery box allowing the battery to fall through and fuse the electrical cabling.

I was at 65kts at 4000 at the time and 0.7kms from the paddock i took off from, maintained 55kts did a look at the paddock before the one i took off from and thought too long a walk and tried to stretch the glide, I know a gutsy/foolish thing - the old got to get home mentality. Well ended up short, landed in the paddock about 8 meters short of the fence at 40kts, no brakes and one almighty bounce on the rough ground, left wing and left undercarriage caught in top strand of fence and broke off, the 2100cc VW engine parted company from the firewall, my helmet went clung on the roll cage, tail half snapped off. Fuselage and remainder of tail stopped about 4 meters into the home paddock. I got out sore and red faced while the aircraft bits in and around the fence caught on fire(engine rolled back to the fence and it or the auxiliary gel battery,set some grass alight after spraying fuel everywhere). That left me with about 1/2 of a aircraft and a "thing" about fences.

 

things i would do differently.

 

1. more thorough maintenance checks particually those hidden items.

 

2. land straight away the location below me was fair/good.

 

3. review thoughts and logics of event to improve the next outcome.

 

4. Overcome "fear" of fences.

 

5. Get a flight review.

 

Bob.

Lucky you are still alive bob. was that at The Oaks?

 

Speaking of The Oaks, went flying on Sunday, perfect blue sky. were you about? Coz my wife got a few pics of everyone flying that day.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Well said Ozzie, those old points-ignition early Rotax's sure went a long way towards making us capable pilots, whether we wanted it or not. It just makes the sound of a modern 912 that much sweeter.

 

And R461, I'm glad you enjoyed some tips, and it sounds to me like you are really enjoying you'r flying on the Light side.

 

I do know that it is possibly to windmill start a 912 by pushing over the nose, my mate does it no problem in his Zamango motor glider, with not much altitude loss.

 

I certainly do not advocate everybody going out and shutting their engines down on my account. As I said previous, only if you and you'r aircraft are suitably prepared for the exercise. I can accept that it may not be everybodys cup of tea. Bottom line is most pilots faced with an emergency usually come up with some form of suitable response at the time.

 

I do think this is one of the most valuable threads started on this forum, and may bring real positive results, which is what it is all about anyway.

 

 

[facthunter]

comment.

 

Very candid stuff, icebob and good on you .,. A shame to lose the VP. Re stretching the glide. IF you are running into wind a speed slightly OVER best glide speed is beneficial. The logic behind this is that the longer you are in the air against a headwind, the more it affects the result, (pushes you away from the aerodrome). Groundspeed is the key. Do a few hypothetical calculations. The extreme case is when your airspeed equals the wind speed.(or worse) Ie you never get closer. A "slightly higher sink rate associated with a slightly increased airspeed is more than offset by the improvement in groundspeed.. This works when you are doing cross country as well.. Nev..

 

 

[bilby54]

Hi, just wondering how many of you forum members have suffered total engine failure in flight and have had to force landIf so

Just interested to hear some outcomes so we can all learn from them

 

Cheers

This is a great post Pioneer.

 

I have had two total engine failures in flight and a few manageable ones. To keep with your questions I have answered them as you have asked.

 

The first was a sudden shutdown on a long cross country flight that was possibly caused by carby ice but I am not sure and the other was during cattle mustering.

 

1. Were you at a manageable height to carry out the forced landing? Less than 300 feet AGL while mustering but manageable for the operation. I had a cleared lane area between to very large electrified fences to land and there was no way that I was going to hit one - believe me!:black_eye::black_eye:

 

2. Were you flying over landable terrain? Mostly, mustering operations do require operations over undesirable terrain but carefull planning should take this into account

 

3. What plane were you flying? Drifter with 582 Rotax

 

4. What engine/what happened to the engine? The main shaft input bearing on the gearbox failed. This had happened once before and is why I am not a big fan of gear drive engines

 

5. Would you have done something differently? Yep, fitted a Jabiru and ban all two strokes!!!:big_grin::big_grin:

 

On another thought, I wish that instructors who turn ignitions off would really think about what they are doing. You are increasing the risk of exposing people to dangerous situations that may or may not turn out successful. If the exercise turns into an accident, who is responsible?? In this day and age, who pays for your mistake?

 

From a commercial point of view, if you scare the student and they do not come back, what have you gained? Bugger all! The grape vine could well work against you in that case and cause both your school (read income) and our organisation to lose members. My thoughts entirely but it would be damned hard to live with a death or permanent injury on your conscience so why do it?

 

Engine failures are infrequent but good instructors can find better ways of teaching engine failure beside switching the ignition off and exposing you to a possible non restart.thumb_down

 

 

[icebob]

Hi Facehunter,

 

Yes did that and some computer modeling a whole bunch of what if's too.

 

The old back to basic flight training still gave the best results. In theory I should have set up 52kts in decent (3-5kt head wind)to give me maximum length of glide but it would have put me on the fence + or - one meter not a good outcome, I would have been better off landing at a higher speed in the paddock below me and fast/slow taxi as close to my home paddock as i could get, would have been a short walk anyway. The paddock i should have landed in is 150 hects, the home paddock is 90 hects.

 

Oh for high drag a VP-1 without engine descends like a Grace Bros. lift wheeee!

 

Bob.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Great story Icebob, a possible classic example of the dangers of 'stretching the glide' which is always why it is a bad idea.

 

I did manage to just clear a fence once, but forgot to flare on the otherside at 40 Kts into a 5' high sorgum field. Same as you, back to putting the aeroplane back together !..

 

 

[icebob]

Hi gofastclint,

 

No my crash was at the back of Blacktown near Richmond 541A(1Km away) on private property.

 

Yes was there Sunday,I was in 530 doing my "get over the fear of fences" thing. first two landing we well, someone said they would loan me a stepladder to get out of the hole:laugh:, but the last three were good to very good. At the end i still left a little uncomfortable on approch and the last 200 feet were the most difficult but in all my years i have never let anything over come me and this is no exeption.

 

Only down side of the day was a sunburnt neck and a nagging wife(I didn't eat lunch til 2pm);)

 

Bob.

 

 

[icebob]

Hi Maj. Miller,

 

I was not going to put the VP back together, however medical issues for my wife have gobbled up my savings and at least one medical specialist has a brand new BMW thanks to us:laugh:.

 

As there was a couple of potential aircraft i was looking at mid last year and now can not afford, i may indeed resurrect the VP1, however a couple of friends are giving me a hard time and want me to buy a trike - A TRIKE??????.

 

Bob.

 

PS maybe we could cobble both together:laugh:.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I really hate having to teach "best glide speed first"..There's a few reasons why.

 

First of all, unless you approach and land at best glide speed all time and by that i mean its your standard approach method (and i know a lot do), when you do get best glide speed evryhting will be much different, ie the picture, attitude, sink rate and so on, so unless your doing it all the time straight away your out of the comfort zone.

 

Secondly, at best glide speed you have nowhere to go. Raising the nose even a small amount will result in loss of lift, raise it further and you will stall.

 

Thirdly, as nev said, its slow, and in anything other then calm winds, the wind will have more time to affect you..

 

What i do is always set the glide speed 5-7 kts faster (in the jab and gazelle) and then start looking for a paddock.. That way you have more options. If your to high you can slip (or dump flap, or both depending on type of course). If your coming up short you do have something you can do about it. You can slow to best glide speed and actually stretch the glide. A terrible term i know, but it is whats happening.

 

At best glide speed you have nowhere to go.. if your short, there's nothing you can do...(see bobs post above)

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Ozzie, mate, holy snappers... At what point do you say enough's enough, im not flying anymore.. 40 engine failures, did you ever have aflight with the fan turning on approach??..Good onya mate, :thumb_up:

Merv it was just a part of developing the available engines back then. two strokes weren't never reknown for great reliability. and the method of approach was more the "build it break it fix it" method, so it was expected to have good deadsticking skills. It was never a case of enough is enough and give up. also did a lot of trouble free hours in between those power failures. It's the ones that go BANG when you are dozing along in cruise that scare the crap out of you.

 

ozzie

 

 

[icebob]

Hi Merv,

 

you are correct although i stayed at 55kts, my best glide speed was 52kts at the last 600 feet i did resort to best glide speed(52kts) and paid the price. at 55kts i would have indeed landed short, way short(meters) off rough ground in front of the fence and i would have been able to steer/swerve away from it and not hit it. The "got to get it home" nearly killed me.

 

Bob.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

I really hate having to teach "best glide speed first"..There's a few reasons why.First of all, unless you approach and land at best glide speed all time and by that i mean its your standard approach method (and i know a lot do), when you do get best glide speed evryhting will be much different, ie the picture, attitude, sink rate and so on, so unless your doing it all the time straight away your out of the comfort zone.

Secondly, at best glide speed you have nowhere to go. Raising the nose even a small amount will result in loss of lift, raise it further and you will stall.

 

Thirdly, as nev said, its slow, and in anything other then calm winds, the wind will have more time to affect you..

 

What i do is always set the glide speed 5-7 kts faster (in the jab and gazelle) and then start looking for a paddock.. That way you have more options. If your to high you can slip (or dump flap, or both depending on type of course). If your coming up short you do have something you can do about it. You can slow to best glide speed and actually stretch the glide. A terrible term i know, but it is whats happening.

 

At best glide speed you have nowhere to go.. if your short, there's nothing you can do...(see bobs post above)

Not quite sure I'm with you here Merv.

 

There are two quite separate issues at play here. First is when the critter quits - the first thing you want to do is to maximise your time in the air and you do that by trading any excess speed you might have and attaining Vbg. Then you can go through whatever you reckon you have time for and set yourself up for phase two: Landing.

 

Some aircraft - I can name at least 3 RAA a/c - have as their standard approach speed Vbg. That doesn't mean you land at that - in fact you generally land 5-10 knots slower. Nevertheless landing is the second part of the puzzle. By putting the aircraft to Vbg as soon as the engine quits you maximise your time to find a spot and execute a landing.

 

And as for the picture being different - it won't be if we train for it and if we go for first principles we don't need the _same_ picture. We just need to be trained to recognise what is happening and to manage it.

 

There's an old thing about the most useless things - and one of them is the height above you. I'm far more comfortable dumping height late in an approach than I am watching a fence travelling up the windscreen. I can think of at least a half a dozen ways of dispensing with height and NO ways of gaining height without an engine in a low to ground situation - setting aside the chances of a little thermal on final.

 

Why would I throw away my most valuable asset early in an engine failure situation? Hang onto it - it's money in the bank. Dump it later if you need to.

 

That means that I need to plan for what I can get to and to get there with adequate reserves rather than some arcane process of inducing sink faster than I need to so that maybe later I can induce a situation where I sink less slowly because I have washed away whatever height I might have had in reserve.

 

Fail to see the slightest logic there.

 

Read Langeweische.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[BLA82]

I really hate having to teach "best glide speed first"..There's a few reasons why.

.

I have to admit MM i'm with Pelorus here. I am far from an instructor and far from a high hours pilot but why on earth would you speed up your decent??????? The more time you have to think about things the better.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Hi Merv,you are correct although i stayed at 55kts, my best glide speed was 52kts at the last 600 feet i did resort to best glide speed(52kts) and paid the price. at 55kts i would have indeed landed short, way short(meters) off rough ground in front of the fence and i would have been able to steer/swerve away from it and not hit it. The "got to get it home" nearly killed me.

Bob.

Nice post Bob.

 

My question though is this: Was it adopting Vbg that nearly got you or was it trying to get to a paddock that you were never really sure of reaching?

 

Kind regards

 

Mike

 

 

[icebob]

Hi Pelorus32,

 

I set myself up to fail by flying best glide and therefore trading height and the old "I will make this home" kicked in. One error compounding the other. not sure which one crept into the head first but reasonably sure the get it home thought kept cropping up.

 

I worked it out that at 55kts i would land short some 107 meters + or - 2 meters(on paper) with the 3-5kt headwind giving me enough time/space to turn and not hit the rough ground just before the fence, the high grass(knee high) would have washed off speed quickly.

 

Forgot to add at VS1 I am at a tad under 700 fpm sink, like i said like a Grace Bros. lift???

 

Bob

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes guys, i know the thinking.. Im only talking about 5 kts here, not pushing the nose over..

 

To much time in the air can be as deadly as not enough.. By being slightly above best glide at least you have 2 options..not just one. ie, you can stretch if you need to. Where we train (jaspers brush) we experiance very bad windshear, and if your right on best glide and loose 8 kts in a flash , where does that leave you in a forced landing??

 

If youve set up to land 1/3 into the field, the small height differance will be negated by propper positioning..

 

The Logic mike, is why have the thing just above the stall in a highly stressfull situation to gain a few more seconds of airtime?? While your stressing out looking for a paddock and flicking switches an inadvertant stall is all to easy. Especially while manouvering .If the chosen paddock is far away, then sure, airtime is the key. I wouldn't dispute that..

 

As to the picture thing and training. Thats all well and good, but how many times have you taken a guy for a BFR and he admits he's only done PFL's once or twice since getting his licence. So lots of time to forget what that picture was..

 

And by the way, this is just my personal opinion. I teach best glide becasue its in the syllabus.. I posted my thoughts to get feedback, which i have. Thankyou

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Yes guys, i know the thinking.. Im only talking about 5 kts here, not pushing the nose over.. To much time in the air can be as deadly as not enough.. By being slightly above best glide at least you have 2 options..not just one. ie, you can stretch if you need to. Where we train (jaspers brush) we experiance very bad windshear, and if your right on best glide and loose 8 kts in a flash , where does that leave you in a forced landing??

If youve set up to land 1/3 into the field, the small height differance will be negated by propper positioning..

 

The Logic mike, is why have the thing just above the stall in a highly stressfull situation to gain a few more seconds of airtime?? While your stressing out looking for a paddock and flicking switches an inadvertant stall is all to easy. Especially while manouvering .If the chosen paddock is far away, then sure, airtime is the key. I wouldn't dispute that..

 

As to the picture thing and training. Thats all well and good, but how many times have you taken a guy for a BFR and he admits he's only done PFL's once or twice since getting his licence. So lots of time to forget what that picture was..

 

And by the way, this is just my personal opinion. I teach best glide becasue its in the syllabus.. I posted my thoughts to get feedback, which i have. Thankyou

This business about "two options" is an illusion. You have bagfulls of options if you have height.

 

As for mucking about just above the stall. I'm not talking about low performance here but your modest performance tri-gear. That aircraft may have a Vbg of 60 knots and a Vs1 of 42 knots. So 1.3 Vso is 55 knots - you have speed in hand.

 

What I'm talking about is flying a speed other than Vbg and ending up with 50-100 fpm greater sink - and that's what we're talking about for 5-7 knots increase in speed. That makes it much more likely that you're going to hit the fence in your _conservatively chosen_ paddock, rather than having to sideslip, use full flap or do an S on final to get rid of a bit of height.

 

Put another way: your engine quits at 1500 feet. Vbg will cover 1 mile a minute and you will sink at 500fpm - a type I'm familiar with. So you can cover 3 miles to touch down.

 

At 65 knots you cover more distance 1.08 miles per minute but you sink about 20% faster - 600 fpm - so you have 2.5 minutes. which means that you cover only 2.7 miles before touchdown.

 

I know what I want: radius of action and height. Never mind stretching the glide - if I get to that it's because I've caused it - I will land 1800 feet before I should have.

 

I like an aircraft that has an approach speed the same as it's Vbg - the best of all worlds.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, bagfulls of options with height. But ive seen guys, time and time again, come up short when power gets pulled at 3000 ft DIRECTLY above an airfield..

 

Just the same as ive seen them overshoot the crap out of it from the same height, following the rule of "don't turn your back on the field"..

 

People stuff up In training, with an instructor beside them.. Imagine how these guys would cope for real..

 

The jab (160) VBG is 65, vs(o) is 57.. 8 kts may sound alot, but ive timed it, it takes 6 seconds from VBG attitude to stall when you just raise the nose to the horizen..Tell me thats not on the cards with a new pilot with his first flight girlfriend sitting beside him and the fan quits. and i'll eat my hat..

 

cheers

 

 

[antzx6r]

I can see mervs point here also. If you have to get a distance then best glide is it. Its pretty hard to keep an aircraft exactly on best glide when your keeping the field in sight, making calls, playing with radio and tx, briefing pax, and going through trouble shooting checks. If you set up your glide based on VBG + 3 or 4 knts to get to your 1/3 point then you can still adjust the glide when you get close. Not just with flaps and/or side slip on short final but if the wind is stronger than you thought, your coming up short, you have the 1/3 of the field and you have a bit of nose up to stretch the glide just that extra bit to make it there or jump the fence or treetop. That and your not relying on keeping the aircraft exactly on VBG to make the field. It sounds smart to me. Unless of course you are already stretching your glide to get to the field you chose being that it is the only one around.