Forced landing without power

[Guest pelorus32]

Yes, bagfulls of options with height. But ive seen guys, time and time again, come up short when power gets pulled at 3000 ft DIRECTLY above an airfield..Just the same as ive seen them overshoot the crap out of it from the same height, following the rule of "don't turn your back on the field"..

People stuff up In training, with an instructor beside them.. Imagine how these guys would cope for real..

 

The jab (160) VBG is 65, vs(o) is 57.. 8 kts may sound alot, but ive timed it, it takes 6 seconds from VBG attitude to stall when you just raise the nose to the horizen..Tell me thats not on the cards with a new pilot with his first flight girlfriend sitting beside him and the fan quits. and i'll eat my hat..

 

cheers

For me in the aircraft I fly Vbg is a "hands off" speed. In other words I know exactly where that speed is on the trim for most normal loading (and on some of the aircraft it's the back stop of the trim - when clean - just to make it easy) so as soon as I have Vbg I go to that trim spot and then take my hands off to be sure. It's part of the reflex. That then means that I have one less thing to worry about - I know that I can focus on the broader picture, just making sure that the ASI is in my scan and that I am not fixing on one item.

 

I want the whole approach to be as near normal as possible. I want to be flying the aircraft smoothly and gently not strangling it. there's something very satisfying about winding the trim right back and just being able to sit at 60 knots as you focus on other things.

 

And as for coming up short or long from directly overhead - surely that's got nothing to do with needing something up your sleeve? Isn't that about practise and judgement and the margins you leave around you.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Adhere to the POH

 

What does your POH say? As has been discussed in another thread here you really should comply.

 

I'm just looking at one and the first item in the checklist is the airspeed to attain and maintain.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[facthunter]

Cause.

 

I think I may be the cause of this by saying that IF you are INTO a wind, you will achieve a better result by increasing your airspeed. You will get a marginally higher sink rate but you will get FURTHER across the ground when you are into wind.

 

Merv's Point about manoeuvering is valid

 

If you are in a thruster /drifter . type aircraft (or similar high drag low inertia) you had better change direction towards where you want to go pretty quickly, as you are going DOWN quite rapidly . To manoeuver you need extra speed. Vbg would not be safe.

 

I think the idea of setting the aircraft up at Vbg is more appropriate to better performance aircraft at higher altitudes, where you night reasonably spend more time troubleshooting, making radio calls etc. and it's not a bad first step as a principle. If in a thruster, or similar, IF your best option involved a reverse of direction, the quicker you do that the better your chance of survival. If you trim to Vbg, while you are still heading away from where you want to go, and then have to increase speed to do your turn(s), you may have lost your opportunity. Many of our worst accidents involve loss of control with lack of airspeed being a common factor, so obviously IF you lose control nothing else matters. . It's over... Nev.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

G'day Nev,

 

I think that's a great summation. I wouldn't care to comment on high drag types - my comments are more on the moderate performance middle territory.

 

Interestingly we seem to do well as far as stall spin accidents are concerned. I had lunch last week with a very experienced Italian instructor who told me of the high number of stall/spin accidents still going on in Europe with both UL and gliders.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Motzartmerv and Pelorus, great to read you'r input and suggestions, we have to be indebted to pioneer for this valuable thread.

 

By my way of thinking, I would expect that the stated "best glide speed' of any aircraft would include a few knots above actual stall speed for safety. As pelorus suggests, best glide is set up to give you the longest time in the air, and to take you theoretically the furthest distance.

 

Then I would agree with MMerv that you would be safer to carry a few knots above "best glide". I have operated at Jaspers Brush, and I know what he means when you can get smacked in the face with large gusts, easily putting you below Vbg which you don't want. I believe I do carry a few knots extra poweroff, as you do want to stay on the fat side, not the slim side. We are possibly talking survival here folks after all.

 

So then on arrival at our selected landing site, we have to get rid of those extra knots we have been carrying above Best glide, so that we don't fly right over the top, or careen through the fence at the other end.

 

Flaps will do it if you have them, a good carefull slip will make the adjustment. You can't just lower the nose and aim for it, as that gives you more airspeed, and in my experience 'S' turning is not the best option for the same reason. 's' turning can work in some situations, and may be best with some aircraft types., however additional airspeed is not what you need on arrival at the selected landing spot.

 

The controlled side slip, once mastered, is a very stable and safe manouver, in which you can raise or lower the nose to adjust you'r airspeed whilst slipping. When you straighten out above the touchdown spot, if you've done well that's the airspeed you'll have on the round thing. On one of my first landings in a Slepcev Storch after pulling on full flap (required for landing and takeoff) the beast just parked itself at about 600'. I found even with full flap which is about 40 deg, the aircraft slipped beautifully. Be very cautious of doing this in some aircraft however.

 

Without wanting to throw another spanner in the works, does anyone remember the 'high key, low key' proceedure of force landing approachs ?. It may have been something I was taught in California during my initial UL training. High Key was 800-1000 ' over the selected landing spot, low key was 300-400 ' downwind for the site. It did make for an organized approach procedure, and also made you keep one eye on the altimeter which you really need to do also. It made a lot of sense at the time. Hoo roo

 

 

[facthunter]

Thanks.

 

You're up early/late Mike. My opinion gets modified more by flying with other pilots, than by myself,(with or without passengers). I thought that I was across a Tiger Moth and could fly it across it's envelope till I started Instructing in it. Then you really learn to pull a rabbit out of a hat, because a student will put it in a situation that you never would.

 

The problem is, how far do you let the student go? Obviously not beyond the point of recovery, but if the student thinks that nothing is wrong (it happens, ignorance is bliss).it is resented. In the case of stretching the glide, most pilots think that they can. It is an instinctive action, especially for a low hours pilot, but even the very experienced ones will revert to it sometimes, under pressure or distraction, if not trained out of it..

 

If we are performing better here in the spin/stall area that is good and someone must be doing it right... Regards Nev..

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

Read the POH

 

With reference to what both MMerv and Facthunter have posted, the following text is from the POH of the Jabiru J160C:

 

3.2 AIRSPEEDS FOR EMERGENCY OPERATIONS

 

 

 

 

 



Manoeuvring Speed ..................................................... 102 KIAS

 

 

 

 

 



Maximum Glide ……………………………………………. 65 KIAS*

 

 

 

 

 



Landing Without Engine Power (Flaps Full) …………… 60 KIAS

 

 

 

 

 



* - A slightly higher speed may give better distance over the ground if gliding into wind; a slightly

 

 

 

 

 

slower speed if gliding downwind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

If you are to low to head into the wind remember that it is safer to land downwind or crosswind rather than arriving still in a turn. Low level in ground effect manouvers should be limited to avoiding hazards.

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

High performance A/C

 

During a CASA safety seminar, a video showed the reactions of the crew of a jet fighter shortly after takeoff when the engine ingested a bird.

 

The first reaction was to zoom to gain as much height from the remaining inertia. While NOT a recommended technique with our aircraft type on takeoff, should it be considered if the fan stops while cruising?

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

During a CASA safety seminar, a video showed the reactions of the crew of a jet fighter shortly after takeoff when the engine ingested a bird.The first reaction was to zoom to gain as much height from the remaining inertia. While NOT a recommended technique with our aircraft type on takeoff, should it considered if the fan stops while cruising?

I'd say keep that nose level or down a touch if you're in cruise. You'll lose to much ground if you lift that nose up.

 

If you're in the cruise and the donk dies, well you should already have a plan A and plan B in the event that happens, maintain a glide speed to get where you want.

 

 

[Matt]

Hi Ken, your question is exactly what I was initially taught and subsequently reinforced (by military and civilian instructors): immediate action = convert excess speed to height. As Mike has suggested (and what I was taught and believe), height = time, and you can never have too much time in an emergency situation.

 

 

[antzx6r]

Jets carry alot of speed and inertia so a pull up will get you a quite a bit of height. Also, and maybe someone with RAAF training can add something here, I think generally the proceedure is for low level ops to get to a safe height for bail out.

 

So if you're low and fast (which you shouldn't be) and there is no where to put down right infront of you then yeah, pull up get a look around for a soft spot and glide there. But you will waste alot of energy in induced drag from the pull up. So if you already have height to look for a field you're way better off just holding alt till the speed comes down to VBG.

 

 

[slartibartfast]

Can I just reinforce what Matt has just said in case you missed it?

 

Your immediate action on engine failure is to convert excess speed into height.

 

Obviously if your failure occurs on climb, you have no excess (or soon won't have) so your first action is to get the nose down.

 

Which brings me to my story:

 

My engine failure occurred on the first flight of my Cheetah from it's new home. The delivery flight home from Taree was a doddle.

 

First time taking off from Goulburn, the engine coughed, spluttered and soon stopped while on climb out at about 200' AGL and over the threshold. The first action was to get the nose down, then check options. I had determined that the Cheetah glided quite well, and having taken off from 08 I knew that 04 was not far away and made an immediate turn to the left (being careful to limit angle and monitor speed) and a radio call with intentions simultaneously.

 

I could see straight away that I was going to make it, so didn't attempt any further troubleshooting or restarts, and just put it down on the main runway.

 

Too easy.

 

Turned out that Tim had connected the fuel lines around the wrong way, and I hadn't picked it up. The drain line was feeding from an inch above the bottom, and the engine was sucking from the bottom of the sump. All that lovely crap in a new fibreglass tank soon filled the filter and choked the supply. Lucky I got home first.

 

+10 for a successful emergency landing.

 

- several million for an incomplete post-build inspection.

 

 

[lazerin]

+1 for converting energy to altitude.

 

I'm an ab initio and my instructor has taught me to do just that. If you're at cruise speed, rather than set the nose at glide attitude and waiting for the plane to settle to Vbg, just pull up and gain a few hundred feet and lower the nose back to glide attitude. Works well and gives you valuable extra time.

 

Obviously, it only works in certain situations.

 

 

[K-man]

For anyone with the Rotax 912, with regard to the engine restart. Our manual suggests restart should be possible by simply applying fuel and ignition, as long as the propeller is still windmilling. If this fails you need to increase the angle of attack and reduce speed, even up to a stall, until the propeller stops rotation. Then you lower the nose and use the starter.

 

The other thing in our POH is the airspeed for the glide, 60kt for minimum rate of sink and 65 kt for best distance in still air.

 

We've had two partial failures due to faulty throttle cables and had no problem landing either.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

That restart method doesn't work in the Gazelle.. You can't get the IAS high enough to turn the prop against the gearbox.

 

Like i said before, i teach the best glide speed method, and its slightly different between types (160 and Gazelle).. but when im practising on my own i use the method i described. And it works quite well..

 

Like others, i have a real concern about 's' turns low to the ground and close to the stall, because guys generally do the same thing, and its this...

 

They start an s turn one way, thats great, then they roill over and go the other way, thats fine to.. But then when they go to line up on the runway with quite a steep turn they almost invariably overshoot the turn slightly. So now they are low, out of time, in a steep turn and BACK ON THE STICK.. Some of them just keep reefing back untill the runway lines up.You can feel the wing load up and the G come on. They seem to think they NEED to hold extended centerline .. The instict to get it in is very powerfull.. And that means pointing it straight down the strip on short final..

 

The above scenario is a classic example of how a stall spin could occur at low level with fatal results..(imho)

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

Turning stalls

 

MMerv, do you demonstrate the turning stall?

 

While doing an endorsement for the Tecnam, my instructor demonstrated the result of over ruddering on a turn while just above the stall. Very rapid wing-over and a panoramic full view of the ground. Very impressive, but I needed a change of jocks.

 

Likely places this can occur, as you describe with S-turns, turning back to the field on engine failure, turning on to final especially if you overshot the centre line.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, in the jab we do stalls upto 60 deg angle of bank. In the gazelle up to 45 deg..

 

And the differance between climbing and descending turns with a stall is quite pronounced..:thumb_up:

 

 

[Matt]

While doing an endorsement for the Tecnam, my instructor demonstrated the result of over ruddering on a turn while just above the stall. Very rapid wing-over and a panoramic full view of the ground. Very impressive, but I needed a change of jocks.

That sounds to me like the entry method for a spin - rudder and back stick at the point of stall - and what you describe sounds like an incipient spin...

 

 

[facthunter]

Situation.

 

Turning onto final and overshooting the centreline When you have a tailwind on base. This is the most likely reason for the misjudged turn. The inclination to tighten the turn is there, often by "ruddering" into the turn, as well. The "ball" is right out to the side and the stick is coming back.

 

Ken I can imagine what you felt. the spin entry in the Citabria IS JUST LIKE THAT. You are pointed straight at the ground and autorotating.IF ALL THIS IS at 400'. A bad day indeed.

 

Re the converting of speed to height, That's for jets. If you want to assess your planes surplus inertia, close the throttle at cruise speed and hold height, and see how long it takes to get back to Vbg. IF its a thermally day don't waste your time. Most of the aircraft that we fly will get there pretty quick. The draggy ones will do it almost instantly, and you will be in trouble (speed-wise), if you don't nose over straight away.

 

The "speed for manoeuver" is not the one in the POH. That is a design(structural) limit. The speed you should use in medium to steep turns is based on the increase in the stall speed due to dynamic loading. YES a steep gliding turn can be an essential part of positioning yourself after an engine out.

 

The thing to bear in mind is that the plane will not stall unless you (the pilot), PULL the control column BACK too far. Nev

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

Yes, in the jab we do stalls upto 60 deg angle of bank. In the gazelle up to 45 deg..And the differance between climbing and descending turns with a stall is quite pronounced..:thumb_up:

Andy, the reason for asking is that, in all my initial training (in a Jab LSA55), this was never demonstrated, only a nose-up wing-over. Later endos in the J160 and J170, a half turn spin was demonstrated, never a turning stall/spin.

 

What is in the RA-Aus training syllabus and what have others been taught?

 

 

[facthunter]

Spin capable.

 

While I know this question was not addressed to me, NO RAAus aircraft is spin certified. Intentional spins are not permitted.

 

As far as I believe,

 

the wing-drop stall (with and without power) is covered, and this is often referred to as an "incipient" spin. It's never allowed to turn into a fully developed spin.

 

I have always encouraged interested pilots to go and get this training in a suitable VH aircraft, if they want to, obviously because I believe in it. Nev..

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes its a very interesting subject. And one that is close to then bone for me.

 

The RAA syllabus requires a satisfactory demonstration of recovery from stall AND incipient spin. Now as some of you will know, getting the jab (160) to drop a wing can be challenging.

 

Recently, while demonstrating this to a student we had full flap and about 2000 rpm.. The approach to the stall was normal and at the break the wing started to drop . The student started to tickle in opposite rudder , but i think he used a bit of aileron aswell, and over she went.. VERY fast, and VERY violently. We went through probably 120 deg or more of rotation. Not much i know, but it was the first time it had happend to me in the jab so the shock was shared by us both.

 

The recovery was immediate with relaxing back pressure and opposite rudder..

 

The shocking thing was just how quickly it let go..

 

I realised that if we are to expect students to recover from incipient spins, then the probability of entering a propper spin is high.

 

So a friend of mine has organised for us to do some spin training in his RV^ with an ex roulette instructor.

 

I would strongly recomend (as nev said) that ALL RAA pilots lash out and do an hour at least, with a qualified instructor in a capable acft.

 

Because if the first time you experiance one is in a booboo, then your chances of getting out of it are not the best.. And the reasons for this are quite simple.

 

During ALL your training you operate on the good side of the lift curve, with mabye a little experiance on the downward side of CL max (coefficient of lift maximum.)ie, the stall..At cl max if you keep increasing the angle of attack the lift starts to reduce, it doesn't just stop, it starts downwards on the deadside of the curve..We know this as the STALL..

 

In a spin the nose will drop, and the acft will roll and yaw to the same side.

 

Now, what have you done your whole flying life to raise the nose??...you come back on the stick..and what do you do to raise the wing?? you use aileron.

 

Big big mistake..

 

By tryiing to hold the nose up with elevator you push the acft further down the lift curve on the deadside, ie, above and beyond CL max.

 

And by trying to use aileron to raise the wing you put the lower inboared wing FURTHER down the cl max slope by increasing the angle of attack of that wing..

 

So here you are, spinning, the nose is down, your right back on the stick, you have aileron hard over in the opposite direction to the spin, and you ho0ld those controls all the way down to the ground..And we read about you in a poorley written and researched newspaper article..

 

Sorry for rammbling, and i dont profess to be trained in spin recovery to the level to be able to teach it or offer much advice on it..Other then to say, go and get some practice.. :thumb_up::thumb_up:

 

And....DO NOT ATTEMPT IT in an RAA acft..

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

Thanks for your candid post Andy. My experience in the Tecnam gave me a healthier respect for the aircraft and a better understanding of the issues.

 

 

[antzx6r]

I stared training in a Jab and we did wing drops. The lazy jab mushes a wing down to 50 degrees or so and the nose doesn't really drop with it.

 

Later I moved on to the Tecnam and as part of the convertion we naturaly did some steep turns and stalls and yep, a wing drop or two. Oh my!... A matter of milliseconds and we were seriousely nose down and seriously wing droped! With a great big canopy full of terra-firma. It probably wasn't as bad as I remember it but it sure shocked the sh:censored: outa me! If I had my first real life enter into a spin like that I'm guessing that just like all the other poor lost souls I too would have frozen with the stick jammed all the way back into my gut and stayed that way to the ground. I'm doing the training.;)