Forced landing without power

[Matt]

I'm with ya MM, and have commented elsewhere on other threads about getting exposure to spin and "real" unusual attitude recovery...mandatory and preliminary before conducting aerobatic training, but also, I believe, a very valuable experience for all pilots. As MM discovered and discussed, the spin entry is very violent and abrupt. It is also worth noting that aircraft that are designed to be "spin resistant" like most/all ultralight/LSA aircraft are also equally difficult to recover if you manage to enter one and do not recover before it fully develops.

 

Funny how the thread went from engine failure to a stall/spin discussion...natural progression?

 

 

[icebob]

Hi,

 

Merv has a good point about students fixating on the center line.

 

When i started flying in the 60's there was a number of students that nearly killed themselves like that, one stalled and wrote off an aircraft just short of the strip and had both legs broken, and i must admit i had that fixation too our instructor just said to us with the engine out anywhere and any direction on the airfield is fine as long as you don't hit anything real solid and its a proper approch. You know what that still rings in the head now, the incidents of near fatals dropped but goodness some aircraft were parked in odd places around the field:laugh: and some were a very long walk home to the hanger too, especially if you had to push :censored:the aircraft back:confused: a cub can get very heavy.

 

Bob.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Good reply R461, I haven't wasted my words.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Basic spin recovery is etched on my brain, back there somewhere. Stick foward, full opposite rudder and hold, power off. Ailerons neutral. Power back on again when recovering.

 

Stick goes foward to break the stall, and get the wing flying again. Rudder obviosly to stop the rotation. I've heard that a bit of power could be used to assist rudder,

 

in arresting the spin rotation.

 

Years ago I trained for my PPL in a 172. The following day was booked for my License check flight, with a check examiner who had a reputation for throwing anything, or everything at you. In the States this can take up to two and a half hours, if the examiner so desires. I felt pretty ready, having done all required skills and manouvers many times, with my very capable instructor.

 

Being a nice day I checked out the 172, and decided to go out to the coast to practise manouvers one more time. I've always enjoyed stalls, (had 400+ UL hours at the time) and after climbing to 4 grand threw out 10 deg of flap, pulled up the nose and ye hah........a lovely nose drop straight ahead. Then I dropped 20 deg of flap, and went through the same routine. Another ye haa.. but even more action that time. I then selected full flap (35 or so in a 172 ?) and pulled the nose up with gusto again. What a lovely day.

 

I remember thinking the nose is going real high, this is going to be a good one !.

 

Right about then the right wing dropped, and the horizon started to rotate. I remember thinking 'gotta fix this, or I'm in the shxx big time' Yoke went foward, power back to idle, and I held full opposite rudder. She probabily only did a half, to three quarters of a turn, and popped right out, in true 172 style.

 

I was nervous next day when the examiner jumped in, but a bit more confident. After only an hour and a quarter jumping through the hoops, we landed and he promptly handed me my tempory FAA airmans private license, which over there is as good as the real thing. Still love stalls up high.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I was taught a little different.

 

1. Power to idle.

 

2. Release the controls.

 

3. Rudder opposite to rotation until spin stops.

 

4. Nose to the horizen.

 

5. Power back on.

 

I know its not taught, but ive seen it demonstrated that aileron INTO the direction of the spin will help stop the rotation. Join the dots on that one..

 

This is not advice im offering, only saying what i was taught.

 

If anyone wants to try it, i can't emphasize enough, do it with a qualified instructor in a rated aeroplane. Sorry to be repedative. Buts its deadly important.

 

ps, not sure id be adding power, i have heard of guys doing it in tomahawks and getting away with it. But if power comes on before the rotation stops you could get it into a flat spin. (i think).. or, have VNE issues in the pullout.

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Got to say that I'm concerned about this thread.

 

So I'm going to say it again - go to your POH and read the spin recovery section. By all means go and do spin recovery training - it's great fun - but follow the instructions in your POH.

 

In default the NASA PARE approach is the gold standard:

 

PARE stands for:

 

• Power -- off
   
   
  
• Ailerons -- neutral (+flaps "up")
   
   
  
• Rudder -- full opposite to the spin & held
   
   
  
• Elevator -- through neutral
   
   
  

 

 

Hold these inputs until rotation stops, then:

 

• Rudder -- neutral
   
   
  
• Elevator -- Easy pull to straight & level
   
   
  

 

 

 

Kind regards

 

Mike

 

PS: To quote Neil Williams: "During all normal spinning the ailerons are held neutral, as on several types they will trail in the direction of roll." He goes on to describe unwished for effects of both involuntary in-spin and out-spin aileron.

 

Mike

 

 

[lazerin]

I know its not taught, but ive seen it demonstrated that aileron INTO the direction of the spin will help stop the rotation. Join the dots on that one..

It would be the same reason as to why you don't use the aileron to pick up a wing drop. In a stall with a wing drop, let's say the right wing drops, if you try to roll left with aileron, you are increasing the angle of attack on the right wing even more and it will go into a "deeper" stall thus dropping further.

 

When spinning, let's say right, the right wing would tend to be stalled with the left wing producing slightly more lift thus inducing the right motion. If you point the aileron into the spin, i.e. right, the right wing will now try to reduce the angle of attack and hopefully equalise the amount of lift and thus reduce the rotation tendency of the spin.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Mike, why are you concerned??.. I think i have clearly stated that none of this is to be attempted without propper instruction..

 

You say your concerned, and then go on to add nasa's spin recovery procedures to the thread??

 

Lazerin, thats right. One wing is on one side of the CL curve and the other wing is livin in deadman country..

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

From one POH:

 

Spins

 

Intentional Spins Are Prohibited

 

Should an inadvertent spin occur, the following recovery procedure should be used:

 

1. Retard throttle to idle position

 

2. Place aileron in neutral position

 

3. Apply and HOLD full rudder opposite to direction of rotation

 

4. Just AFTER the rudder reaches the stop, move control stick BRISKLY forward, far enough to break the stall

 

5. HOLD these control inputs until rotation stops

 

6. As rotation stops, neutralise rudder, and make a smooth recovery from the resulting dive.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thats great. But what if its an inverted spin?? or, you hold the stick forward to long?? what happens is a spin reversal which is incerdibly difficult to perceive. Spin reversals have killed many skilled aero pilots becasue they held the stick forward to long and didnt recognise a reversal had taken place..

 

Im sure there are a few techniques for recovery, just because the way i was taught differs from NASA or the POH you have at hand doesn't make it any less valid. It works, i can assure you. In upright, inverted and normal spins.

 

cheers

 

 

[BLA82]

Thats why all you guys should sell your 3 axis planes and all buy trikes:wasnt me:

 

Spins are nearly impossible:laugh:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Haha.. yea, nearly impossible, but deffinatly impossible to recover from.. Good luck with that...

 

 

[BLA82]

Common MM:laugh:

 

BRS might come in handy in that situation or even better don't go there:thumb_up:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

i like option 2, don't go there...hehe:thumb_up:.. went up in atrike once... and yep, don't think ill be goin there again...

 

 

[BLA82]

. went up in atrike once... and yep, don't think ill be goin there again...

Common MM wheres your sense of adventure???, Flying a trike is like owning a Ferari some people are lucky enough to own one but EVERYBODY wants one:laugh:

 

Just remember on the sixth day God created 3 axis airplanes, on the seventh day he realised that refinement was needed and he designed trikes.:thumb_up:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

haha...thats a good one...

 

 

[turboplanner]

Is that why he went missing on the eighth day???

 

 

[djpacro]

...... So I'm going to say it again - go to your POH and read the spin recovery section. By all means go and do spin recovery training - it's great fun - but follow the instructions in your POH.In default the NASA PARE approach is the gold standard .....

and applies to many aircraft types, both upright and inverted. There are very good reasons for the actions and their sequencing in PARE. The best reference is http://www.richstowell.com/ - Rich's book on stall/spin awareness.Excellent comments in your posts overall pelorus32.

 

What works in some situations cannot be assumed to apply to a fully developed spin or to other aircraft types. eg inspin aileron will make the Cessna Aerobat go flat; inspin aileron is essential to recover from the CT-4 fully developed spin mode.

 

I'm always happy to discuss spinning so its an interesting thread.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Dudes, i wasn't advocating aileron to help spin recovery. It was demonstrated to me to show me the powerfull effect of aileron drag etc near and in the stall, and was an example of why in that particular aircraft ailerons should be left well alone.. hence the relasing pressure on the controls.

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Ailerons

 

Dudes, i wasn't advocating aileron to help spin recovery. It was demonstrated to me to show me the powerfull effect of aileron drag etc near and in the stall, and was an example of why in that particular aircraft ailerons should be left well alone.. hence the relasing pressure on the controls.cheers

Merv,

 

the perhaps subtle point is that your step 2:

 

2. Release the controls.

Could as Neil Williams points out lead to a non-neutral aileron situation - which as DJP points out may be necessary to or delay recovery. That is why PARE says "Ailerons Neutral" which is quite different to releasing the controls.

 

Kind regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

OK, I know I hijacked the thread in post #67 (because of concern doing S-turns to avoid overshooting) and despite the interesting posts on spins, can we please get

 

So, what should you do once you get the wheels down, but find yourself running out of paddock. How do you ground-loop an a/c not fitted with differential brakes?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, fair call. I understand that airframe nuetral and aerodynamic nuetral are different and why this could cause problems. I think the release controls step is to bring AofA back below CL max and therefore make the ailerons behave normally?? And stop the pilot inadvertantly poling forward to much and forcing an inverted position, or tucking under..??What do you think ??at our next brieffing ill quiz him on this point..

 

cheers, and thanx for the feedback, much appreciated..(sorry to pioneer for hijacking the thread..

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Hey MM, it's MM here. I have heard of instances in the past where pilots have initiated basic spin recovery, and for some reason it hasn't worked with that particular aircraft, then they have just let go of everything, and the thing comes right out of the spin. There could be some merit in letting go of controls, and I would probabily try it as a plan B, but only after repeated application of the recommended spin recovery technique for that aircraft. It is obvious that some particular aircraft do require a particular spin recovery technique.

 

Isn't it interesting that we are finally adopting the aircraft POH in this country (pilot Operating Handbook). It is an American thing of course. I worked and flew with them in the States, and then came back here to the Aircraft Flight Manual system, which was an absolute joke. Finally they threw that in the bin, as deserved. The POH is a more level playing system, and like most US aviation related systems is the result of many years of adaption and streamlining. Unlike our outdated UK based system and techniques, where we throw everything in the bin, change the company name, and attempt to reinvent the wheel every five years or so.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

In the heat of the moment in a paddock Ken, a Jabiru WILL groundloop. I've seen it happen. We were joking afterwards that the owner needed to fit wing-tip wheels. It would probably help if the surface was slippery (as in grass). If you press the rudder hard enough you'll tip it onto the wing, so if you press it hard to the left the right wingtip will hit and then you'll spin around to the right (very quickly I might add!).

 

 

[Gibbo]

As a pilot I have never had the displeasure of a engine failure 'as per say', just a few carb icing issues that were easily resolved.

 

The one question that I would love to pose to the pilots who have had the experiance is... How much was the glide distance affected by the stopped prop? You get lots of practice with the engine at idle but this still adds to the glide distance.

 

Gibbo