The 'impossible turn' - a known killer.

[turboplanner]

Yes, I'm surprised too.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Agree Pelorus, but Keefe was talking about a level turn

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I think some post's in this thread are a perfect example of " a little bit of knowladge can be a dangerous thing.."

 

Rudder is used in the stall for the dropped wing because its dangerous to use aileron..

 

Hpd keeps telling us all in his staight forward way, airspeed is the thing here.. You cannot spin an aeroplane if your AofA doesn't exceed the stalling angle.

 

Like Mike said, keep it simple, If she quits on upwind, land straight ahead.. Simple as that, can talk a bout rudder this and aileron that all day, but lowering the nose and maintaining IAS will give you your best chance of liveing to fight another day.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Sort of like there's only one way to change a Roadranger - it's when you start thinking about it that the trouble starts.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Agree Pelorus, but Keefe was talking about a level turn

I think it's something to do with being at a mid point between those two other scenarios. Just need to think about it a bit.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[motzartmerv]

TB, exactly mate. Try and use the clutch and ya screwed..

 

 

[Guest keeffe]

Physics is an exact science :)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Is it really???... Flying's more of an art i think..;)

 

 

[gofastclint]

Actual flying is an art, but the factors that contribute to it is a science.

 

stuff all that, flying is bloody great.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Haha.. If ya wanna get technical, all art is based on some science... don't get me started..

 

 

[turboplanner]

While I'm not against science, (BAK study has saved me once), an EFATO crosses over into the twilight zone where you need fractions of seconds, not seconds for a successful outcome.

 

This link shows the Luskintyre accident in more detail, and I've also attached the ATSB file.

 

 

While the file shows a sad sequence of events and build decisions, and indicates the Tiger is probably too small to be suitable for wing walking, the part most applicable to us here is what happened after the engine failed.

 

In this case the ATSB has counted out the seconds available to avoid the fatality.

 

Note that the pilot had skills and experience well above most of ours.

 

Note Point 4 of the Significant Factors section which says:

 

"Immediate, appropriate control inputs were not applied and control was consequently lost at a height insufficient to effect a recovery."

 

Note how fast it went into the stall, seemingly in one single movement from the time the engine failed.

 

What would you have done?

 

MM's instinctive action would probably have got the aircraft down, so why didn't the pilot do it?

 

I clearly don't know the field or the circumstances other than what I read, but I'm going to speculate that there were fences/stumps/trees in front of him and he didn't want to kill the wing walker, so he was swayed into turning back. I'd like to think it was something like that given his great skill and long experience.

 

Luskintyre 001_ASOR199401106.pdf

 

Luskintyre 001_ASOR199401106.pdf

 

Luskintyre 001_ASOR199401106.pdf

[Bruce Robbins]

If you gents are having trouble sleeping over all this scientific discussion, please download the 10mb file located at the bottom of this page. It contains very detailed and well written descriptions of what is happening to the aircraft during all phases of flight.

 

http://flightlab.net/Flightlab.net/Download_Course_Notes.html

 

There are some nice videos on the site also, showing some of the things discussed in the notes. I have found the notes explain very nicely many of the behaviours discussed above, including how and why an aircraft rolls into or out of a turn when stalling. As some-one famous once said "Things are not always as they seem".

 

Happy bedtime reading,

 

Bruce

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Luskintyre strip is very wide very long beautiful river flat grass. other than a fence and country road at each end there are only scatttered trees and fences to avoid. nice place to visit.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

No, i don't think that it was obstacles, if you look closely in the aerial shots, theres nothing for quite some distance in any direction..

 

The report stated he often flew it very slow in climb out, perhaps 5 kts above the power off stall speed.

 

Also, it would be hard to know exactly what aerodynamic effects the walker would have on the tail. With power on the slipstream effect would no doubt have been strong enuff to allow rudder control, but with power off and a high AofA, perhaps the walker severly impared airflow over the rudder.

 

I'd hate to speculate on what the guy was thinking, but, if it were me and my friend was standing on the wing, i would be hesitant to ram the stick forward.. Thats the only reason i could think of, he didn't want to buck her off..

 

A very sad accident indeed, and infront of dieing kids to..Shocking.. But a perfect example of the discusion topic..

 

 

[djpacro]

.. lowering the nose and maintaining IAS will give will give you your best chance of liveing to fight another day.

Exactly. A lot of this discussion has been about what not to do before you get in a situation where that is the vital action.

Truly superior pilots are those who use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills.

 

... http://flightlab.net/Flightlab.net/Download_Course_Notes.html ... Happy bedtime reading,

Bruce

Yes, excellent resources at that website.

 

 

[newairly]

Yes BLA82, that second glider looked like he may have known what he was doing. Kept the wings as flat as he could, and more ruddered it around. Pulled it off well with the height he had, but you wouldn't get away with that in most ultralights.

The low drag and high inertia of a glider enables more energy to be recovered. It may have traded velocity for lift during that incredible low turn. Racing gliders routinely do a low pass at a finish, dropping water ballast, and pull up enough for a full circuit!

 

Phil