Rotax 912 ULS vs Jabiru 3300

[pitfield]

I'm a few months away from deciding which powerplant I'm going to purchase. I've decided against the 914 because I've heard too many concerns expressed about reliablity and the uncertainty of mechanical expertise away from major centres (i.e. in the boonies). So it's either the 100hp Rotax or the 115 hp Jabiru. I know it weighs more, but I think the incremental power might be helpful coming off water. I'd very much appreciate hearing divergent opinions, and I'd like to hear comments from anybody that has operated the Jab in colder temps (i.e. minus 10C to 15C). Thanks to you all.

 

 

[Skyhog]

Jabiru 3300 engines have had issues with cooling of the rear 2 cylinders.I've heard if you're in a 130kt machine this may not be a problem,but something slower could be different.As for cold temps,Jab engines don't seem to start well on cold mornings.They need to be turning over quite quickly to fire up (over 300rpm).When Jabiru used to sponsor Natfly and had a large range on display they all had solar battery chargers plugged in.

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

What aircraft are you putting it in?

 

 

[Yenn]

I heard a comment today about someone who believed the best way to get a good Rotax 912 was to get a second hand one from a flying school plane with about 1300 hours on it. Check it out and it will probably need no more than a top overhaul and new rings, run it to about 2400 hours and it will probably still only need a top overhaul and rings. Next time round it will probably need a new crank.

 

If this is true, there is no need to look further for an engine. While I like the Jab engine I havn't heard of one going 3000 hours.

 

Don't take this as gospel. It is only hearsay, but I wonder if anyone can confirm it.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

There are Jab bottom ends out there with 5,000 hours I am led to believe.

 

I think I read recently that the Jab is 125 hp. In lieu of that, it's 120hp.

 

Major differences between the 2 engines is the complexity of the water cooling in the Rotax. You have lots of hoses and coolant to worry about.

 

Jab parts, MUCH cheaper to work on (valve is $45 versus $245 for the Rotax).

 

I like it that the Jab is much cheaper to work on as I have a 6 myself but I do feel that the Rotax won't let you down as often. As in, it's more likely to not reach TBO, however when it's running there's no more reason to suspect that it will stop versus a Rotax.

 

Cooling appears to be resolved after a very recent change to the intake system.

 

What is the aircraft type?

 

 

[Guest Cloudsuck]

G'day Pitfield,

 

 

I have one of each and love them both. I prefer the solid lifter Jab (as opposed to the hydraulic lifter) and do the maintenance religiously every 25 hours. The performance from this engine is much better than the 912. Mine starts well but they all have problems in sub zero temps. You need to manage your Cyl head temps on climb out and I prefer to step climb on hot days. The bottom end is bullet proof. The earlier ones had some minor valve train problems but that seems to be fixed now. Mine has 420 hours on it and the only problem was at 160 hours when it had a sticky exhaust valve. Jab parts are cheaper and easier to get. The crew at Jab will have them to you over night.

 

 

The 912 is just a nice engine all round but has nowhere near the grunt of the 3300 Jab. I like the modern technology and reliability of this engine. Parts are way more expensive and the dealer is much harder to get along with.

 

 

So if power is your key consideration, the Jab is the go. Otherwise, the 912 is great.

 

 

[pitfield]

Leaning towards a Bush Caddy

 

It's all-metal, made here in Canada, and seems perfectly suited for the kind of flying we can do in Canada. I've not yet flown one, but I visited the factory and it's an impressive operation. I saw a completed fuselage and wings which are just a few days away from final assembly at a local airfield. The interior is manufactured and installed by a local company that does work on business aircraft; it's the best I've seen on this class of aircraft. Wing chord is about five feet, which is certainly the largest I've seen. I like the all-metal construction, and I like the fact that the manufacturer is relatively local.

 

The R80 has a huge wing, gets off the ground in about 200 feet, and cruises at 95 or 100 mph, which is plenty for me. There is an exceptional amount of baggage space, and the aircraft has a lengthy history of operation in the Canadian north (hence my concern about the Jab in cold weather). I believe you guys have a few R80s and would expect the owners are very pleased.

 

I probably can't fly one until the spring, so a final decision isn't imminent. There are other potential candidates, but none of them have a fleet in Canada which slows me down a bit.

 

Thanks very much to all of you for your responses. I can't recall how I stumbled onto your forums, but this is far and away the most useful and instructive resource I've found. And I've researched the entire subject to exhaustion.

 

Best regards,

 

Chip

 

 

[Guest Cloudsuck]

G'day Pitfield,

 

I have a friend with a Bushcaddy (Bush Pig we call it) here in Australia with a 3300 Jab in it. He is in the process of sorting it out and making some large mods etc. They look like a great, solid aircraft. If you check out this club blog and scroll through, you will see much reference to the Bush Pig. http://theflyingtigersboonah.blogspot.com/

 

Given that you are in Canada, I would go with the Rotax. You will have real touble getting the Jab to start in the cold.

 

 

[bushcaddy105]

Gooday Chip

 

Fancy reading a post from a Canadian about the BushCaddy! Great aircraft, in my opinion. I am the owner/builder of R80 19-4564 as shown on the BushCaddy website under "completions" Here's another thought for you:- I chose to use a Subaru EA81 as a cheap but reliable alternative. Not quite as powerful, not quite as fast as either Rotax or Jabiru, but oh so reliable and cheap to build and run. No cold start issues, either. It now has nearly 3 years and 290 hours of flying to its credit, and another one with a Subaru is about to be built in my locality. The owner is waiting for delivery of his kit.

 

No worries about cold starts at present - we are in a week of over 40 degrees C temperatures here in South Australia. I will PM you, as we are will be visiting Canada this June/July and intend visiting the factory.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Maybe with the Jab engine you could fit a heating element and plug it into a pwer point before you start it. like you do with your cars.

 

ozzie

 

 

[wizzard1964]

It's all-metal, made here in Canada, and seems perfectly suited for the kind of flying we can do in Canada. I've not yet flown one, but I visited the factory and it's an impressive operation. I saw a completed fuselage and wings which are just a few days away from final assembly at a local airfield. The interior is manufactured and installed by a local company that does work on business aircraft; it's the best I've seen on this class of aircraft. Wing chord is about five feet, which is certainly the largest I've seen. I like the all-metal construction, and I like the fact that the manufacturer is relatively local.The R80 has a huge wing, gets off the ground in about 200 feet, and cruises at 95 or 100 mph, which is plenty for me. There is an exceptional amount of baggage space, and the aircraft has a lengthy history of operation in the Canadian north (hence my concern about the Jab in cold weather). I believe you guys have a few R80s and would expect the owners are very pleased.

 

I probably can't fly one until the spring, so a final decision isn't imminent. There are other potential candidates, but none of them have a fleet in Canada which slows me down a bit.

 

Thanks very much to all of you for your responses. I can't recall how I stumbled onto your forums, but this is far and away the most useful and instructive resource I've found. And I've researched the entire subject to exhaustion.

 

Best regards,

 

Chip

Will your aircraft be hangared all the time?, can you keep the engine warm in beetween flights.... Thats something you normally need to do over there isn't it? or isn't it cold enough. I'd talk to the guys from jabiru and see what the suggest?

I just got my first Jabiru, its got a 2200 in it and I am impressed, my best mate in our club has a 3300, his has some cold issues, but its an early one, and it has higher compression than a normal one. when he needs a replacement (in about 200hrs) hes going to buy a brand new one, hes of the opinion that there are no more issues with them at all.... just keep up the regular servicing. As far as I know, you don't need to service quite so often if you use mogas..

 

WIZ

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

The Rotax 912/912uls has a great track record now since the mid 90s, for reliability. Parts may be more expensive being german, but since you hardly need any, it's simply not a factor long term. As far as coolant goes, you have more consistant running and warm ups. If you suffer a hose failure (rare), it's no big deal as the engine keeps running, and will still get you home without ruining the engine or cylinders, as you still have air and oil cooling going for you. And unlike the Jab no worries about shock cooling and cracking cylinders/heads during descents, which will be a big plus up in Canada. There are now 912s out there with 7000+ hours on bottom ends...The 914 is not necessary unless you need the extra power or high altitude performance. The 912uls has lots of very reliable power, and just keeps getting better the more hours you put on them. You would be closer to a Rotax dealer over there than a Jab dealer.

 

 

[HEON]

I currently have a Rotax 914. Due to the extra cost (over 912) and poor dealer (Bert Flood) support, I personally beleave that the extra power, which is great to have, is NOT worth it.

 

My next aircraft has a 912, but I will miss the 914!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

HEON, I am surprised to hear you have had bad raport with B Floods. I have always found Wal to be the gold mine of helpfull info, and usually quite helpfull..I know sometimes he is busy and you have to keep things short, but that is understandable also.........

 

 

[facthunter]

choice of engine.

 

The advantage of the rotax is propeller choice. Being geared it can run a larger prop. and can also use a pitch adjustable setup due to the hollow drive shaft. Personally for short take-off type aircraft which are usually "draggy". I would consider the Continental 0-200 or the Lycoming 0-233. if your weight limitations permit. They both run good TBO figures which makes them cheap enough in the long term. Nev

 

 

[Guest watto]

If you live remote at all I would go Jab as after seeing a head removed and valves reseated and replaced in a matter of 45 minutes with a hand full of tools the simplicity has to be a bonus, but you will need a real good battery and looking at the bush caddy that would not be an issue as far as space goes.

 

 

[bones]

I got no idea on a FW but in gyros you can keep a jab cool, because they are working hard without enough air flow through the cyclinders, that said the 912/ 914's are cranking the hours regularly, well past the recomnended TBO

 

 

 

[HEON]

Can only call it as I found it Maj Millard. I know it's against a common view but think it is 914 related. Thats why next aircraft will have Rotax, but not a 914.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Fair e nuf, and you won't need to keep that grand in the bank for when the turbo takes a dump !! Two things I really don't like on aeroplanes, turbos and air-conditioning. And add to that heaters and auto-pilots too..........

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Fair e nuf, and you won't need to keep that grand in the bank for when the turbo takes a dump !! Two things I really don't like on aeroplanes, turbos and air-conditioning. And add to that heaters and auto-pilots too..........

There speaketh a man NOT from Tassie. Try spending an hour or two with an OAT of -5C or -10C and then tell me you don't like heaters in aircraft. :yuk:

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

C'mon Querty, I flew in Northern California for ten years in open cockpit ULs in the middle of winter, you just get a real good ski suit. The one's I were referring to, are the avgas burning ones in large GA aircraft. (Baron, Chieftan, DC-3.) They can, and do catch fire, and are often referred to as 'firestarters' in the industry. If I were to fit a heater to a UL, I would look at the small 12v ceramic jobs that you see in marine shops. The ones that draw heat off the exhaust muffs have a history of leaking exhaust fumes and putting you to sleep..................................................

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

I fitted a shroud over part of the radiator and ducted it air through an in-or-to waste valve. It worked a treat, no chance of ex gas, and no need ........wait for it........wait for it..........to........wait for it.........SUIT UP, before flying.

 

 

 

[Valdiviano]

Bmw r1200

 

Any comments on the BMW R1200 or R1150 engines. www.takeoff-ul.de

 

80 kg all up except prop.

 

A Canadian co www.airtrikes.net quoted me US $ 1950 for a reduction gearbox to suit a BMW R1150.

 

Interested to hear some comments as I will have to make an engine decision for my Searey early next year

 

 

[wizzard1964]

www.takeoff-ul.de[/url]80 kg all up except prop.

A Canadian co www.airtrikes.net quoted me US $ 1950 for a reduction gearbox to suit a BMW R1150.

 

Interested to hear some comments as I will have to make an engine decision for my Searey early next year

I'd seriously consider a jabiru 2200....

 

 

[Valdiviano]

jabiru 2200 = 85 hp

 

R1150 =95 hp

 

r1200 = 120 hp