Coroners Recommendations

[68volksy]

Howdy,

 

Has anyone had a read of the Coroners report and recommendations surrounding the Goulburn Sting incident?

 

Anybody got any comments about the recommendation or findings?

 

Mr Coates and Mr Allen did not get painted in a very attractive light at all.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

do you have a link??

 

 

[68volksy]

I don't have a link but they emailed me a copy rather quickly.

 

I think I have attached it correctly. If I should not be posting this for any reason (privacy or something) can someone please let me know. I think the information is readily available to the public so I assume it can be placed on here.

 

Smith and Guthrie Finding - Final.DOC

 

Smith and Guthrie Finding - Final.DOC

 

Smith and Guthrie Finding - Final.DOC

[Gibbo]

The comments made about registration and licencing requirements and recommendations scare me.

 

The recommendations come very close to converting us to the GA world. I can just see our logbooks being sent to canberra and sitting there for 12 months while they are inspected.

 

Gibbo

 

 

[68volksy]

RaAus is meant to be a self-regulating body and we are all supposed to be responsible for this regulation.

 

If they allow such an utter breakdown in regulating activities as occurred in this case then what choice does the government really have?

 

The primary area of concern is the sale of aircraft. I would like to have some level of confidence that the aircraft I am purchasing has never had any major accidents, has been serviced appropriately and is registered legally and properly. At the moment there is no mechanism to prove this occurs.

 

 

[Admin]

Unfortunately it takes one bad apple to make it worse for all.

 

I will be making an editorial comment on this soon including copies of newspaper reports, and other activities of Mr Coates including attempts of Blackmail, emails that have brought my wife to tears, using 3rd parties to send offensive emails, distributing people's email addresses to others and disgusting emails sent by Chris Seimers who also sells Coates products on his site and another site that supports these people. It also took the police to intervene in this.

 

I stated in a previous thread on this accident that I hope the Inquiry brought out all the facts to which I received an abusive phone call from Mr Allen but it seems that it has.

 

I personally hope that the RAAus kick these people out of our Association and as Lee Ungerman says - what we do today paves the way for our freedoms of tomorrow - unfortunately in this case Coates has provided cause for our freedoms to be reduced whilst placing a huge burden on us all.

 

Remember this when touching an XCOM radio or an X-Air aircraft or an MCP Product

 

 

[motzartmerv]

What an appauling show.. One hopes the powers that be don't take on the recomendations, because of one bad apple..

 

Ians problems with particular gentlmen are a testiment to what sort of people we are dealing with here.. This sort of thing has the potential to bring us all down.. both literally and metaphoracly

 

 

[68volksy]

The Recreational Aviation movement is now so big. How do we stop this kind of thing from happening?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

By members, pilots, smelling a rat and calling it in...

 

 

[68volksy]

This is an ideal. With the intimidatory tactics employed in this instance though who exactly is going to really stand up? What power does anyone actually have in this instance?

 

As an auditor I'm only too aware that fraud is not meant to be discovered. The fraudulent activities in this case were also not meant to be discovered and it took the lives of two experienced and dedicated pilots to uncover them.

 

 

[Gibbo]

If this is not a clear case of 'de-certification' then the RAA really have a problem.

 

Based on the fact that they have been found to falsify log books etc then how can the RAA even accept the accuracy of their pilots log books and therefore their licences in any form.

 

I do like the recommendation of a public register but some details should not be made public such as names etc, only the history. A couple here have been caught out and made their feelings known in a positive manner.

 

Based on what was said it comes close to 'legal' manslaughter. Fraud resulting in two deaths.

 

Gibbo

 

 

[eastmeg2]

I have to wonder how balancing the prop could correct an imbalance in the engine since there's a 2.27:1 gearbox between the 2. Perhaps it's more likely both had previously been damaged by a prop strike for example.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Has this coroner never heard of "Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics"? Statistics show that private GA and RA-Aus have almost exactly the same fatality rate. (and a much better one last year!)

 

And does he really think a 1970s "crumple zone, what crumple zone?" Cessna is going to provide better protections to its occupants in a crash than a "flimsy" ultralight?

 

Anyone else's Rotax known "to stop suddenly"?

 

Lycomings fail due to abuse also, if that was indeed the case here. Would it have been more likely this abuse was spotted at a Lyco's 100 hourly, considering it was said the damage was unlikely to have been found during maintenance?

 

If the same prop balance issue was dealt with by the same or other LAME but it had been a Lycomin, would he have realised the prop was not the root cause and investigate further? I'd say highly unlikely.

 

I am all for better inspections on transfer of aircraft as this is not the first horror story to come out, but the rest of the recommendations are nonsense based on ignorance and speculation.

 

 

[Guest keeffe]

I am lost,

 

What is this talk of fraud etc etc can someone send me or pm me so I can be enlightened.

 

Thanks.

 

 

[68volksy]

Basscheffers, you will note that the report did not attribute the cause of death to any one issue. What it did uncover was the atrocious attempt at "record keeping" and a blaise attitude towards the protection of others.

 

Basically, someone was not doing the right thing and there was no mechanism in place to catch the wrongdoing.

 

As for safety - I know i'd rather hit the earth hard in a big old warrior or the trusty gazelle than in something designed with pipe cleaners for legs to save weight. I'll be offending someone and starting an all new discussion with statements like that though...

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Basscheffers, you will note that the report did not attribute the cause of death to any one issue.

It's an air-accident investigation, of course it doesn't attribute it to any one thing as they never are!

I was referring to the coroner's snipes at RAA safety, snipes which can by no stretch of the imagination are supported by statistical or technical facts.

 

If you are going to make sweeping statements like that, you better back them up by facts. He didn't do that, and couldn't have as the facts don't support his case.

 

 

[68volksy]

The fact she was most concerned about was the lack of checking and sanctioning by RaAus due to the structure and funding of the organisation. There are rules in place that state how things are to be done so as to protect us as pilots and those whom we choose to carry as passengers. The facts in this case showed that the prior owners of a very fast and very light aircraft ignored the rules.

 

Is that the only purpose of Recreational Aviation? Remove the checks and balances developed by General Aviation over a hundred years and start again from scratch? This is what has happened in this case. But now we're starting from scratch with hugely advanced and increasingly complicated aircraft.

 

 

[Guest keeffe]

Sad, This may be a change forever.

 

Mike

 

 

[68volksy]

The altimeter comment is due to oil being found in the altimiter tube. They figured that the oil blocked the tube and kept the pressure constant.

 

What caused the vibrations is anyones guess. I think that's why the coroner got a little frustrated at the lack of record keeping by the previous owner.

 

 

[sain]

Wow, that section entitled The importation, usage, maintenance and sale of aircraft by ... is pretty damning.

 

pity he was given a certificate of privilege for some of it.

 

 

[68volksy]

Reports are the Mr Coates and Mr Allen were warned on several occasions by the Coroner that they should stop talking. They chose to ignore her advice though. Eventually one of them got further legal counsel about what they should and shouldn't say.

 

 

[Gibbo]

I think that's why the coroner got a little frustrated at the lack of record keeping by the previous owner.

The comments he made about the records being 'created' to enable the sale of the aircraft are the big worry. How many others have falsified logbooks etc so a sale will or can go thru. Most of us are hopefully fairly 'honest persons' who have intentions that are safety based, the system current relys on that fact and there is not real checks and balances in place. Hence the inspections etc of the log books.

 

Giles

 

 

[Gibbo]

As for safety - I know i'd rather hit the earth hard in a big old warrior or the trusty gazelle than in something designed with pipe cleaners for legs to save weight. I'll be offending someone and starting an all new discussion with statements like that though...

Still prefer a fibreglass Jab than a alloy special. Seen the differance in injurys and injury types.

 

;)

 

Gibbo

 

 

[68volksy]

It's another case of greed overwhelming good from the face of it.

 

Recreational Aviation works on the whole because it is our hobby/passion and we enjoy spending the time to make it safe and keep our machines in good order. The people who enter the arena to make money are really the ones who possess the greatest motivation to bypass the rules and regulations. Many of these people are good honest folk also however I believe the motivation is there and needs to be kept in check.

 

 

[68volksy]

I know that i'd be noting anything wrong. My memory can't be relied upon in most cases. Also be put on a big yellow post-it note "Plane is broken - get fixed"