Subaru Boxer Diesel.

[gofastclint]

Subaru estimates that half of all its sales in 2010 will be diesel.

 

Their new motor is said to be the same size as its current 2.0L motor.

 

Subaru is part owned by Toyota and have had alot of help in the design of this motor. We all know how reliable Toyota diesel motors are, couple that with a light weight boxer engine and you get a motor i would love to have in the front of my aircraft.

 

Now all we need to do is wait for unlucky drivers to write their cars off and buy them for the engine.

 

No spark plugs.

 

No ethanol problems.

 

Runs on jet A1.

 

Quiet and Efficent.

 

Not a dodgy engine from a company that will go broke any time soon.

 

 

[BLA82]

Not a dodgy engine from a company that will go broke any time soon.

And who would that be Clint?

 

 

[gofastclint]

And who would that be Clint?

Caught out again lol, your sharp as a tack BLA. I just think its better to go for the company that builds a over a million engines a year and not one has an engine failure, than some company that makes 100 engines and then goes belly up with no parts back up.

 

I like the sound of a low reving sooth motor, that is alot more fuel efficent than a petrol engine. Delivers twice the torque and lasts twice as long with a 3rd of the maintenance.

 

Do you like the sound of that?

 

 

[BLA82]

Caught out again lol, your sharp as a tack BLA. I just think its better to go for the company that builds a over a million engines a year and not one has an engine failure, than some company that makes 100 engines and then goes belly up with no parts back up.I like the sound of a low reving sooth motor, that is alot more fuel efficent than a petrol engine. Delivers twice the torque and lasts twice as long with a 3rd of the maintenance.

 

Do you like the sound of that?

Well those figures sound good but they are based on road vehicle figures and there is engine failures. Just to let you know when Subaru released the new WRX one in 8 of their engines failed on the product line. Having said that I have to admit it I would still prefer a higher reving "aero specific" engine than a low reving auto engine but that is just choice not saying they don't work. Just one more thing Diesel's may last twice as long but 3rd of the maintence I doubt it.

 

 

[Tomo]

Just one more thing Diesel's may last twice as long but 3rd of the maintence I doubt it.

Internal maintenance will be similar... external maintenance is a lot easier... ie. no plugs, points, mag's... etc...

 

 

[gofastclint]

filters and oil, plain and simple.

 

 

[Tomo]

filters and oil, plain and simple.

That's it...

 

Get a 40 yr old diesel, put some diesel up to it, and 90% of the time it will run... Get a 40 yr old petrol, put petrol up to it, and you'll have to clean the points, plugs, maybe get some new leads, clean out the fuel jets in the carby etc...

 

As a diesel fitter...I'd prefer a diesel any day...:thumb_up:

 

 

[BLA82]

Well Tomo fair call but as a Dielsel fitter you will also know that diesel froths in a tank if shaken to much, how good will that be in turbulance and also no plugs correct but still glow plugs, fuel pumps, injector rails etc etc. Diesel's are good for what the a designed for Low reving high torque applications, boats, 4wd's earthmoving equip etc. I don't think they should be put anywhere near a aeroplane. And besides the services may be less work but parts like filters and oil a 3 times the price.

 

 

[Tomo]

Well I suppose each person has his own thoughts on the situation...

 

Concerning the diesel frothing up bit, I don't really think that will be a very big problem... A 4wd can be jiggled around an awful lot, and not have any dramas... turbine aircraft using Jet-A1 fuel, it's basically a diesel fuel, and they don't have any trouble...

 

Oil filter and Oil prices are a bit higher, but then on a diesel you don't have to change the plugs every so often, so it probably works out the same... mind you it's really only the synthetic oil that cost a fortune.... but then you don't have to change it as often either.

 

I'm not trying to "Convert" you over to liking diesels, but I do think that a diesel engine in certain aircraft would be a way to go in the future... I'm willing to try one out in an aircraft of my own one day anyhow...

 

 

[hfrensch]

"Diesel's are good for what they are designed for Low reving high torque applications,"

 

I thaught that was one of the main design criteria of a good aircraft engine

 

Cheers Helmut.

 

 

[Yenn]

Thielert went belly up much to the chagrin of Cessna and Diamond, but now they are using a version of the Mercedes diesel. The Thielert used 0.36 lbs/bhp/hour whereas the Merc used 0.34, which is good in anyones book. I doubt that jabiru or Rotax can do better than 0.5

 

 

[BLA82]

No need to convert me Tomo, I love Diesel's in cars, 4wd's etc. Just auto engines in aircraft a bit of concern to me personally but each to their own. I would like to see how they go if bought out.

 

 

[skybum]

My two cents worth, matching torque to a prop design in a diesel is easier than the same application for a similar displacment petrol motor.

 

 

[wags]

Whether we like it or not, Avgas will not be around much longer - the US Military are phasing it out, Mogas is hard to source at Airports just about anywhere, but Diesel (Jet A1) is everywhere.Try buying Avgas outback in other than highly used airports etc.

 

Bring on the Diesels.

 

 

[gofastclint]

Whether we like it or not, Avgas will not be around much longer - the US Military are phasing it out, Mogas is hard to source at Airports just about anywhere, but Diesel (Jet A1) is everywhere.Try buying Avgas outback in other than highly used airports etc. Bring on the Diesels.

You are exactly right. There is a reason why the Diamond DA-42 comes with a diesel option. Its the intelligent choice. The best thing is, if the engines are made by factorys like Mercedes/Bosch and also used in cars, they will be alot cheaper than an engine from a traditional over priced aviation factory.

 

 

[BLA82]

if the engines are made by factorys like Mercedes/Bosch and also used in cars, they will be alot cheaper than an engine from a traditional over priced aviation factory.

Good point but unless they go through the process they will not be Certified and I can't see Mercedes wasting their time and money for such a small market. So uncertified engines will only be good in homebuilts or the like.

 

 

[gofastclint]

Good point but unless they go through the process they will not be Certified and I can't see Mercedes wasting their time and money for such a small market. So uncertified engines will only be good in homebuilts or the like.

Mercedes definatly wont certify the engine. But the good thing is, like the Mazda rotary, there are companies currently working to certify it.

 

 

[eightyknots]

I own a 20 year old diesel-turbo powered car and it goes, and goes, and goes. I really like them as well. My daughter has a diesel Corolla and it continues to go with very few maintenance requirements.

 

The only thing that concerns me is the issue of weight:

 

1. Because of higher compression, diesel engines are heavier than an equivalent capacity petrol engine;

 

2. Each litre of diesel fuel is around 20% heavier than a litre of petrol.

 

This weight penalty has to be overcome by aircraft designers somehow.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Diesel (Jet A1) is everywhere.

That depends on how big your tanks are! Flying a turbine chopper (EC120) from Adelaide to WA takes a fair amount of planning, I have on good authority... The other guy in the groups flying a piston powered R44 had no such issues.

That said: bring on the PULP at airfields! The problem is the aviation refuelers don't want to touch the stuff for liability reasons and the operators that have their own won't sell it because being a fuel merchant is a pain in the backside. (*cough* Aldinga *cough*)

 

If you are ever down this way and need fuel: Goolwa has a PULP bowser!

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

"Diesel's are good for what they are designed for Low reving high torque applications," I thaught that was one of the main design criteria of a good aircraft engine

Yup, that's exactly right. Aircraft engines are all about torque, rating them in HP doesn't actually make a lot of sense.

That said: I think normal (car) diesel engines make their peak torque below 2000RPM, which isn't the optimal speed for a prop.

 

 

[REastwood]

I have a Subaru Forester Diesel and according to the manual the "peak" torque is from 1800 to 2400 rpm. The power at those revs ranges from 80-90kw (107 to 120hp). Peak power is 108kw (145hp) at around 3500rpm. It is a nice smooth engine that revs quite freely for a diesel.

 

Richard.

 

 

[Spin]

I'd love to see this come off and am confident it will - one day! I have been saying that since the 80's though, when Zoche diesel radials were going to be the next big thing in aviation. There have been several since then which have promised a lot but struggled in delivering, ask anyone that had a new Cessna grounded due to clutch issues with the Thielert, this even before financial woes caught up with them.

 

Again, on the longevity and cost issues - Granpa's Ferguson is a far cry from a modern high revving, common rail, turbo diesel. They do break, and damned expensively at that, anyone here had to pay for a rebuild on their turbodiesel ute, never mind European luxury model? Enough to make your eyes water and often runs a replacement engine a close race, at $17-20,000! Some are better than others, but I have seen em all in bits accompanied by much wailing and gnashing of molars.

 

Someone also raised the maintenance issue, well manufacturers blurbs notwithstanding, most mechanics are recommending shorter oil change intervals and experience in cars suggests that higher maintenance costs take many, many km to set off against lower fuel costs per km for diesels.

 

So again, I'd love to see it and am sure that one day, with a lot of money, someone will get it right, but I don't know that I'm ready to join the test pilot team just yet.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I have a 2yr old ford focus diesel which is a common rail turbo diesel etc. Very impressed with the performance and ecconomy, but my god, the oil price has to be seen to be believed fully synthetic 5W-40 can run to more than $100 per oil change if done as part of a service and $70 if DIYS.... Im told that the oil specs are one of the reasons that the engine really gets around 6L per 100kms on the road instead of the 9-10 that the petrol one gets... That said each tank of diesel gets me about a 1000km's and the petrol equivalent to achieve that would cost me twice the price of diesel or an additional $70. so while the oil is expensive the cost savings (ignoring the premium cost of the car to start with over petrol and maintenance costs, if they exist..im yet to see any, but havent owned enough or long enough to be statistically relevant) the oil is paid for very quickly.....but thats only part of the picture.

 

As an aside, when I moved from Adelaide to Coffs I towed my trike using that car. Fuel economy went from 6 to 9l per 100kms. When I originally towed the trike from Newcastle to Adelaide using a commodore on LPG the fuel usage growth was simply staggering and the car wasnt comfortable going faster than 90kms/hour and I had to stop for fuel at almost every town I went through. The diesel happily sat on 100, 105 in the areas that allowed it aqnd never felt under stress in any way. The same could not be said of the commodore.

 

Andy

 

When the Original poster said that Subaru expectd 50% of future car sales to be diesel, if the engines are in general as good as the one I have I can see no reason at all for that forecast to not be true

 

 

[stanzahero]

I agree with Andy about the sales forecast. With diesel reaching European Quality standards it is a good alternative in cars, however...

 

Compression Ignition engines need to be inducted for an airplane. They are reliant on compression ratio for their efficiency.

 

Lower air pressure means lower compression ratios at altitude. Add the extra weight for a turbo, the extra strength required for the castings, mechanical fuel pressure pumps...

 

I'm open to the idea though...

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi All, i dont know about the other states, but in Qld.Unleaded was $1.13 and heading lower. I paid $1.28 for diesel.Fill up the Patrol this afternoon Ouch $180.00. Ive been told the Diesel is more expensive, due to supply and demand.Mines buying alot, and as more and more cars are bought here with diesel engines, the price will head North.As per Andy's Thread.My Oil changes cost me a fair bit mainly because my engine holds 10.5 Litres of oil.Twin oil fliters.But since my engine is the 4.2 Turbo.Old school engine.I use Mobile Delvac and change it every 5000 km.Oil is cheeper than engine rebuilds.20 Litre drum costs me about $120.I use 14 ltrs of diesel per 100 km, regardless of what is do.Towing my Digger or Hwy or driving around town.Its uses pretty much the same.I would love to have my engine in a A/c,But it would have to be the size of a Cessna Caravan, because of the weight of the engine.lol