Why dont we have serious water bombers?

[Aussie Steve]

In this country where bushfires are the norm most summer months (unfortunately) youd think we could organise some serious fire bombers. I know its a money thing, and they,d only be needed for a few months of the season, but they could be leased over to the northern hemi when they need them. Or couldnt we bring some wet heavies out here? There must be dozens of them sitting around in the snow right now!

 

C130,s, Invaders, Mars, hell they even have 747 and Galaxys.

 

(I know I know, they,re too expensive blah blah blah.... tell that to the homeless and worse, down in Vic. I think will have to seriously consider something additional to what we currently have on hand.

 

The skycranes and reg bucket brigade choppers are good but they are CSIRO proven to be ineffectual for the types of open country fires we see out here.

 

All respect to the crews.

 

A couple of water bomber pics

 

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ontario-Ministry-of/De-Havilland-Canada/1234288/M/

 

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Conair/De-Havilland-Canada/1005698/M/

 

 

[BLA82]

The skycranes and reg bucket brigade choppers are good but they are CSIRO proven to be ineffectual for the types of open country fires we see out here.

I don't really think CSIRO really have it right there, They might or might not be as good as planes but the large Skycranes have definately saved countless lives and houses. I have personally witnessed that Elvis chopper a few years ago save 8 houses with one dump.

 

I believe they would be a better option as water bombers either need a large lake or river to refill or land where as a helicopter can just hover over any dam etc

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

I'm keen to see the Kiwi "Blue Thunder" in action, 5 tonne of water per drop is going to make a huge difference I reckon!

 

 

[octave]

This looks impressive.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfCwChAg6lE"

 

 

[Ultralights]

everyone, including the politicians has forgotten the Navy helicopter fleet. 817 Sqn with the Sea Kings, each equipped with their own Bambi buckets and crew, and 816 Sqn operates the Sea Hawks, again, each with a Bambi bucket in its equipment list, not to mention the Squirrels. again, capable of firebombing..

 

Not ONCE have they been called into action....

 

and the guys want to get into the action, they have the training, the equipment, and the will to want to help, but they have never received the phone call from the Chief of Navy to deploy. of course, the Army gets called in to clean up the mess after its all to late.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

where are you going to find 5 tons of water, the airfield to operate it from plus the logistics to support it all within minutes of the fire. better off with lots of smaller aircraft that can cover a wider area require smaller teams for ground support and can easily access dams ect. better preperation from property owners, regular burning off to avoid these large amounts of fuel building up over the years would go a lot further than having a flleet of aircraft that sit on the ground most of the year. but the we could argue that we should keep our Caribous and use them for this type of work.

 

oh and putting these firebugs up against the wall would go a long way as well

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

everyone, including the politicians has forgotten the Navy helicopter fleet. 817 Sqn with the Sea Kings, each equipped with their own Bambi buckets and crew, and 816 Sqn operates the Sea Hawks, again, each with a Bambi bucket in its equipment list, not to mention the Squirrels. again, capable of firebombing..Not ONCE have they been called into action....

 

and the guys want to get into the action, they have the training, the equipment, and the will to want to help, but they have never received the phone call from the Chief of Navy to deploy. of course, the Army gets called in to clean up the mess after its all to late.

Unfortunately all grounded. The only operating cab's are currently away at sea doing trials.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The water bombers seem to work best in inaccessible country close to houses on a relatively calm day, when the firefront is relatively slow.

 

The Ericksons dump 9 tonnes at a time, and the fleet utilisation between Australia and North America is relatively efficient.

 

However, I notice that even they now use a smaller helicopter to scout for water supplies, so a lot of support is needed.

 

The Royal Commission will allow a very detailed analysis of every facet, but what's already clear is that these fires were very similar to the 1939 fires in that they were spotting a kilometre or so ahead, and the ferocity was such (an index or 320, 300% over the previous maximum fire scale), that fire trucks had to stay out to avoid fatalities to their crews.

 

Under those circumstances, subject to smoke, fire bombers could still have been fighting the fires, but they would have been geographically beaten - too much area, not enough planes.

 

One solution could be a better chemical.

 

The old "too much fuel" argument has also started, along with suggestions that people should be banned from living in the bush,

 

but under the weather conditions prevailing the spread of the fire was through spotting at tree top level primarily, so the fuel level was secondary.

 

Some gutsy flying went on though, and already some people are crediting sky bombers with saving their houses.

 

 

[Aussie Steve]

Hey dont get me wrong BLA82, as I said, the Skycranes do a fantastic job, as I have seen first hand. In 2006 we had 2 of them operating out of our Airfield at Katoomba along with 18 other bucket choppers, and they were there for 2 weeks.

 

Their abillity to quickly pick up water and return to the scene is their forte. but in the case of the Vic situation its obvious their capabilities were at max.

 

my question was purely to get everyone elses opion on the matter on the table, and I appreiciate everyones input, including yours. :thumb_up:

 

Link below shows Erickson Skycrane Delilah preparing to t/o whilst Shania comes back from the front to refuel at YKAT. "these are seriously noisey birds"

 

DelilahVIDPart2.flv video by Aussie_Steve01 - Photobucket

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Hi Steve, yes you would think they would have one based up at Medlow bath during summer. The big 'Elvis" choppers are worth having even if they save one house. They did that the other day, and probabily many more.

 

Last week during the Ingham floods, we spent three days flying any aircraft we could get our hands on, to keep people in food and necesities, whilst five Caribou. numourous Blackhawks, and Chinooks sat idle nearby.

 

Finally three days after the town was cut off, they finally started flying in fuel with Blackhawks and Chinooks. Don't understand why it took them three days, to get going.............

 

 

[icebob]

Hi,

 

I can answer you on that Maj. Miller. The relative State must request the service from the Commonwealth in writing the issue is all the rotten red tape. In the 1994 bush fires Navy and Army choppers were on standby, everyone knew the order had gone in but 2 1/2 days later it got to the ADF. Too many hands for this paperwork to go through and too many "xxxxxxxx" departments.

 

Bob.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

better off with lots of smaller aircraft that can cover a wider area require smaller teams for ground support and can easily access dams ect.

It's not that simple. Sometime is small bucket does so little, that its effects are going to be gone by the time you come back with bucket number two. Bring a large bucket to begin with, however...

What about C130s? Surely it should be possible to have a tank that can be rolled in and dump out the back?

 

Also: when you load them at a bigger base, rather than sucking from a dam, you can use liquid mixes that work even better on fires that plain old water.

 

But yeah, on a day like last Saturday, any size bomber would find it hard to make a dent in it.

 

 

[skybum]

My two cents worth. Yan Yean Reservour was within minutes of the Disapointment Fire complex. A team of CLs could have dumped a huge amount of water in a very short time. What it will take is a quantum change of thinking by the command and control people in the upper echelons. They just like helicopters.

 

 

[skybum]

True, true. Melbourne Water have a particular problem with that. Yet, they have no problem in using our water in environmental flows. (A total waste during a drought!)

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

imagine spending thousands to set up your house with pumps plumping and dowsing sprinklers ect only to turn it on and find your dam/pool has been sucked dry.

 

i think the power companies are going to have to explain a few things.

 

looks like power lines may have started a few of these fires.

 

 

[turboplanner]

One thing's for sure, there's a fair spray of BS going on here!

 

 

[Admin]

I would like to know where you got that piece of information from.. All we have heard is the fires were either arson or lightning strike.

I also heard this on the news down here that at least one of the fires commenced from power short sparks hitting the ground - perhaps the word Arson gets better National News coverage but also remember there were for memory 30 separate fires going

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

This mornings sydney tele mentions it with a photo of a pole on a hill with comments from a resident. also yesterday seven sunrise interviewed the resident. the power company said no comment let the inquirery sort it out.

 

no bs

 

OZZIE

 

 

[turboplanner]

I read the Sydney Telegraph story about a power pole starting the Kinglake complex fires, but the only fact is the location, the cause of the short is not mentioned.

 

People died right across Victoria, and there were different causes to nearly every one of maybe 40 fires, so any conclusions are going to take time.

 

The body of one of my association members appears to be in a burnt out car at the front gate of friends, and they have to drive past it until the forensics team carefully get to it.

 

Thousands of people have been deeply affected, and stressed, so now is a time for sensitivity.

 

I believe there are still several thousand fire fighters knocking down about 17 of the fires, including people from interstate and overseas, so any suggestions that the CFA/DSE planning guys were a pack of idiots in selecting water pick up sites is a bit premature.

 

The area of the fires already exceeds a million acres, and that is growing, so aircraft only had a small part in the big picture, but there will be some very positive stores, I understand from first hand experience that one helicopter guided several cars along roads and away from fires in conditions when they wouldn't have known which road to take.

 

Please let's be sensitive.

 

 

[skybum]

No arguments from me. I have direct evidence that DSE have changed their approach with property owners.....for the better....hope it continues. Would be great to have good neighbours again.

 

As for waterbombers, history will show that the only demo was set to fail in comparison to the helitaks. If the Aus feds bought CL for the fire season they could also be operated by SAR authorities for maritime rescue in fairer wx when the fires aren't burning. It still makes me sad that Col Pay died trying to get a croppie to do what a CL does better, pick up from a lake quickly.

 

EDIT Further, the Wandong fire was a killer as soon as it took off. No amount of warning or resources would have saved anyone within 30km of where it started. It moved THAT FAST! My dad sweated bricks when he heard about it. Low humidity, high winds and very high temps is the worst combination, add fuel load to become hell on earth!

 

Media is also reporting one fire was from a known fault, didn't say which one yet..

 

 

[Admin]

Is this water tanker serious enough :big_grin::

 

[youtube_browser]PytYPRIsJ38[/youtube_browser]

 

or

 

[youtube_browser]KvBRWTumoZI[/youtube_browser]

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

just watched the Evergreen 747 on 'today tonite' it can drop 90,000 lts of retardant or water. it looks like it delivers a monsoon for a couple of Klms.

 

apparently the nsw and fed govt enquired about it but there is only one and it is currently going thru mods and a overhaul during the northern off season.

 

there is also a DC10 that delivers about a third of the 747.

 

impressive

 

 

[Admin]

Sorry Ozzie - we must have been watching the same thing on TV

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

The big firebombers aka 747 are just to big the turn around time and the ability to hit the fronts acuratly and from low level are just not practical.

 

I'm biased but the Fire Boss (802 Airtractor on floats) makes sense. It has a quick transit at 150kts only needs about a mile of water to scoup up a full load (800 us gallons) and we already have 802's in the country all we need to do is fit them on floats. Airtractors are already used for water bombing here in oz but there is only one in the country on floats and its still being held back by Casa! Oh well one day we may learn from whats already done everywhere else in the world.

 

[youtube_browser]OQSYp1l7r5I[/youtube_browser]

 

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

some times ne all the time i wonder just what is CASA's real role in aviation is. as soon as anything practical or benificial to the community or fun comes along they stomp on it. it must have taken a lot of pressure to get redbull happening here.

 

oz