Airmanship?

[Ben Longden]

Just a question.. Do Melb based GA schools teach their overseas students the basics of airmanship?

 

The reason I ask is that today, while in the circuit at Shepparton with three other aircraft, all newish 172s, I had to abort activities in the circuit and depart the flight plan due to what can only be described as a breakdown in separation.

 

I was halfway along the base leg of the circuit in a Tecnam with my instructor, when I heard thevery badly spokencall of a Cessna 172 turning base.

 

My instructor looked over his shoulder and was startled to see the 172 bearing down on and level with us. At this time in the circuit, the Tecnam was at 60kts with first stage of flaps.

 

At about 200m apart and seconds from my turn for finals, I aborted the landing and departed the circuit, flying firstly to the right and then up. I commenced the manouvre at the same time the instructor issued the command.

 

There was no acknowledgement from the 172 pilot that he had seen us, let alone received our standard calls.

 

The three 172s were essentially a flight of three students whom my instructor suspected were on their first solo navex and were from Moorabin.

 

Any comments?

 

Ben

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Hi Ben,

 

I was in the circuit at Shepparton yesterday in the Tecnam when we were "crowded" by an overseas student and his instructor. Nothing like as close as you. They were following us around the circuit and in my view getting closer and closer. I could feel the hair standing up on the back of my neck. We did a touch and go only to find them right on our tail. My instructor commented about how close they were.

 

After my downwind call the instructor in the other aircraft called us and asked about our current air speed. My instructor replied with out airspeed. It seemed that finally it had dawned on the pilots in the other aircraft that they were not observing separation standards.

 

Who knows where they came from.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Hi

 

I get real nervous when A/C are flying fairly close in a circuit. You can be fairly sure of their intentions (land) as such, the possibility of a go around is fairly high. (almost certain)

 

I've had to do this several times in an Allegro whenI was onfinal with stage one flap set, (don't usually set second stage, unless need to wash off some height) when someone decided to truncate their circuit. I seen what was happening and bugged out fast. (leave flap on full power, then pull flap off around 800' before x wind, and return to normal circuit)

 

Or the odds are, one A/c trying to occupy the same space as the other may occur.

 

Somewhat annoying, having to go around, but much safer. I say if they want the airspace, let them have it.

 

No radio call given or acknoleged by other A/C. Some pilots I've seen seem to think, they can follow standard circuit pattern no matter what is happening. There's nothing wrong with continuing on downwind for a few more seconds, so the circuit can clear. (airmanship)

 

Still, nothing beats mark I eyeball. When really busy most would be lucky to get in standard radio calls, whether from other A/C or self. So, visual separation still takes some beating. Easy to do, just assume the other guy is going to do the unexpected and your half way there.

 

As originally I learnt to fly without radio, visual separation was all you had. Fly defensively as if the worst is always present and live to fly another day. And never forget those give way rules either.

 

My 2cents worth, Micgrace

 

 

[River]

G'day 'Team',

 

Adding to this airmanship discussion, some time back, I had just completed my final pre-flight checks and engine runup, etc and gave the standard radio call re entering runway 30 for departure to the north.

 

Prior to this I had checked the circuit area and saw nothing and heard no aircraft active on the radio when the radio crackled with a foreign accented voice and with a rather strong signal strength calling that his aircraft was entering downwind for runway 30. Weather was one of those beautiful one day, perfect the next day… no wind and visibility 100% with the circuit being a right hand pattern.

 

This airmanship incident was at a well utilised GA/RA/Helo airfield just north of Brisbane. Nothing wrong with this so far but I just had a ‘vibe’ that all was not what it sounded like and upon scanning the downwind area and that of elsewhere with-in the circuit I could not observe this aircraft. I called the aircraft asking for his location again but received no reply. I elected to stay where I was off to the side of the runway still by some 50 metres but re-positioned my aircraft to give myself a better scanning view of the circuit area.

 

Then the aircraft called in again indicating he was turning base for 30. Damm, how could I not see this aircraft still yet and I have 100% line-of-sight vision of the area. He then again calls up that he’s on finals for 30. Hmmm, I thought, I’ve missed seeing him on the downwind, base and now finals??? I was becoming genuinely sus of these radio calls… Again I scanned the circuit area and of-course the 30’s finals but no aircraft? I awaited some 2 minutes but still nothing so another radio call requesting his position and, of-course, no reply, bummer.

 

After another minute or so I decided that as there is another airfield just a few miles so-to-speak further up the coast and that as they have a runway of the same 30 direction the earlier radio calls may have been indicating for that airfield. The difficulty I had with this thinking was though that the aircrafts radio signal strength was very strong and ‘sounded’ like it was quite close by.

 

I conducted a very though visual scan once again of the circuit and finals area and called that I was entering 30 for departures to the north, awaited, no replies and scanning the skies proceeded to move towards the take-off position on 30. As I was turning the aircraft from the taxiway towards the runway I then observed an aircraft flying very very low over the trees obviously heading for the 30 threshold. I mean he was only some 20 or 30 feet above the tree line! I stopped where I was, still just short of actually entering the runway as this aircraft flashed by to land directly in front of me - and then liftoff again… turning west immediately after becoming airborne never to be seen again. (There’s never a surface-to-air missile lying about when you need one!)

 

The analysis of this unintelligent airmanship performance by this aircraft was made worst as it was a well know GA training aircraft from a major GA aerodrome not that far south west of my airfield and that it appeared there was an instructor in the right seat too.

 

Further, this aircraft must have flown an off-set south western straight-in approach completely against all the local airfield rules and that of the ERSA info too from quite a distance away and at a height of no higher than most likely 100, max of 200 feet.

 

I came away from this occurrence with the distinct impression he was going to land no matter what or who was on or using the runway and his radio calls were totally false and misleading as was his airmanship.

 

 

[Guest palexxxx]

Apparently a lot of overseas students are being trained in Australia in a "package job-lot". I think most of them are from China.

 

Perhaps a few reports should go in so that the quality of the instruction and therefor the standard of the future pilots may improve.

 

Peter.

 

 

[Guest palexxxx]

I forgot to mention that as these "pilots" are from China, most of them have no command of the english language at all and that is why the comms are minimal at best.

 

Peter.

 

 

[Ed Herring]

Hi Guys

 

Training of overseas students is a big part of our Australian Aviation industry and therefore they are very important to our economy. While it sometimes seems to us that their command of "English" is not the best you will find that in reality it is better than we think.It is simply that we have difficultyunderstanding them! The Instructors will be ensuring that the "student" will have a proper understanding of procedures before letting them loose! Therefore if all of us are following the correct procedures we shouldbe aware of what they are basicaly talking about. We have all these same issues and concerns in our area with the overseas students, but with a little understandingit all seems to work! A good idea is to phone the training organisations and discuss any of your concerns with them. They will be keen to talk to you!

 

Regards

 

Ed Ed Herring

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Hi Ed,

 

I'm with you that the training of groups is important to the Australian Aviation industry. I think that it's great that people choose to come here from wherever to learn to fly. The weather conditions are good and the standards are good - generally.

 

I guess what I was reflecting on in my post was that between Ben and me there appeared to be an identifiable sub-group of pilots who were playing a bit loose with standards. As I said - "who knows where they came from" - I don't know whether it was somewhere nearby or Moorrabin or where it was.

 

I would feel the same way if there was another identifiable sub-group of pilots not adhering to sensible standards. Most failures in aviation have at least some element of system failure. That means that we need to be interested in where these people as a goup came from - in terms of the training establishment - because we need to question whether the processes and procedures at that place make the grade. Maybe somewhere in the training system lies an issue that is giving rise to these outcomes.

 

My concern is that if Ben had ended up a statistic then the ATSB would undertake such a system review but that's not terribly useful for Ben!!!

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Last night / afternoon I heard someone leaving Baccus Marsh asking for a clearance to get into class C airspace at 3,500ft, suggesting that "all the guys around me are ROOKIES andI'm concerned for his safety" I very much suspect that these guys may have been on their way back to Moorabbin and were nearby Baccus Marsh. I'd love to know if it was the same guys.

 

 

[Ben Longden]

I related this incident to a bloke at work.. not just any bloke, mind you, he owns his Vietnam War Bird Dog (complete with nine bullet holes) and has a twin command IFR ticket - and his son drives 747's for Qantas.

 

His comment was that several schools in Melb churn out overseas pilots like chocolates on a production line with no real thought about their ability to fly - or fly safely. His advice was to formally notify CASA.

 

I would far prefer Melb based schools to be alerted to this practice by their students than to have an ATSB investigation involving me in the PAST tense.

 

Ben

 

 

[facthunter]

Yeah,, If you can sort it out Your a long time deadreport it you guys. better to do something about it than not botherand have something happen that was preventable Nev...

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

English or not, it's not a requirement for radio's in most of these places, so "see and be seen" the best that you can. I'd probably prefer one of them with GA commercial licence behind me to an over-aged half blind RA pilot who only flies on the occasional weekend.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Hi Clem,

 

I've got to bite :big_grin:

 

I'd rather have someone with a good attitude and a careful approach (pun intended) behind me. I accept that at 10,000 hours the person has more skills and experience than someone with 10 hours. However if they do not have a safety attitude I don't want either of them behind me. [insert hair standing up on back of neck emoticon].

 

I've been in the air with some severe crazies and some very good pilots. Experience/license type isn't the determining factor.

 

Kind regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Ed Herring]

Hi Guys

 

This is a very good debate and a most important issue. A good lookout at all times and a see and be seen attitude is critical. Fly at the proper quadrantal flight level altitudes ( even below 5000' ) and following the correct procedures in the circuit at all times is a must. With the growth in recreational aviation and the increase in aircraft numbers, discipline and training must be paramount. If you can get the aircraft callsign of any undisciplined activity you can find the owner and subsequently trace it to any offending pilot to establish sensible comunication to resolve your concerns.

 

As for the "overseas" student issue and our difficulty with understanding the radio calls make it your business to know who the schools are that frequent your area and talk to the Chief Pilot or CFI of those schools. Express your concerns and establish a relationship with them. We have done this in SA with Flight Training Adelaide and we work in very well as a result of this.

 

The next point of the "Maintain a proper Lookout" component of AIRMANSHIP, don't forget that there are many airfields ( private and CTAF ) that do not have a radio requirement and as we fly around our greatcountry we may not necessarily have the luxury of hearing a confusing or hard to understand radio call to warn us that there may be another aircraft in our vicinity.

 

Best Regards

 

Ed

 

Ed Herring

 

 

[Guest danda]

It may be true that the trainee may not have a command of english and the pro's and con's have already been discusedhowever the instructor must have a command of both languages to be able to train the student.

 

That being the case shouldn't it be the instructor's responsibility to insure correcr radio procedures are observed?

 

Wouldn't it be the responsibility of the instructor to ensure that safe flying procedures are observed and safe circuit procedures observed?

 

Correct me if i'm wrong however Ben's origional posting is alaming for 2 reasions 1) pour circuit procedure 2) pour instructional procedure.

 

It matters little what is exceptable in their own country what does matter is what is the regulations and isexceptable in Australia.

 

Don danda

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Danda, all well andgood to be next to the instructor when they are low hours and learning, however once they do out on solo NAV's all hell breaks loose. There is a certain school at Moorabbin that has lost aircraft to "international aviators." Higher premiums no doubt, however much greater income potential. It's a catch 22.

 

I can't count how many times I've heard a foreign student lots or fly through a drop zone or something else stupid, however I just fly along with my eyes wide open and I can't really go wrong.

 

 

[Ben Longden]

"Eyes wide open" is the key phrase here....

 

And yes, I do believe an ability to use the radio especially when you have been repeatedly called, and other traffic KNOW you have the radio on is a collision waiting to happen - especially if they are being asked what their intentions are.

 

Ben

 

 

[facthunter]

If you've lost sight of an aircraft in the circuit its a rotten feeling, dont just turn & hope it'l be alright because it's a big sky, it isn't big enough to take the chance, It will be a rotten thump if you hit something Once you're turning in a high wing you see nothing. If you are not going too fast kick in left rudder and shove the stick to the right & skid it so you can see behind before turning left., extend downwind-- think about separation in a proactive way Better than trying radio repeatedly,if it hasn't produced any results before. OK. I've finished nagging ..N..

 

 

[Ben Longden]

"Extend down wind" is the second thing this guy should have done. The first thing was to open his eyes.

 

I would really love to know which airlinehe will be flying for. Then I can make sure I never fly internationalwith them.

 

Ben