Please use those transponders and monitor the area frequancy.

[Guest Pabloako]

I'm sitting here bored at work, so I thought I would share with you my experience that happened last weekend. It isn’t really an incident or accident, but I guess it could have been quite nasty!

 

On Sunday I planned a small navigation flight from Caboolture to Kingaroy and then onto Gympie and back to Caboolture again. Although the weather was fine after a very rainy day previously, there was some low cloud dotted around, but I thought I would give it a go.

 

I left Caboolture as normal with the transponder set to 1200 and set it to ‘ALT’ as I lined up. A few minutes after departure I changed frequency to the Brisbane centre as I left the Caboolture CTAF area, which I always do. As the ground started rising below me I climbed to an altitude of 2500 feet, which was a few hundred feet below the cloud base (hence clear of cloud) however the visibility started to reduce somewhat and it was rather hazy. I decided to carry on and give it a couple more minutes and see what it is like then, because I thought it was getting pretty close to the VMC limits.

 

All of a sudden Brisbane centre came on and said…. “VFR aircraft 8 miles to the east of Kilcoy at 2500 feet, traffic alert for VFR aircraft 8 miles to the west at 2500 feet”. After about 10 seconds of having a good look around and not seeing anything through the haze, or hearing anything from two aircraft somewhere else, it sunk in and I thought "crikey… that’s me" and responded “Brisbane centre… [Aircraft call sign] 8 miles to the east of Kilcoy at 2500 feet, descending to 2000 feet and turning to heading 360 degrees (right turn)”. He responded that the traffic was now one mile to the west and within a minute of me commencing the decent and turn I saw a twin engine "something" fly almost over the top of me with about 500-600 feet vertical separation and less than 1 Km horizontal separation. We never did hear anything from the twin engine aircraft. That was then my hint to turn back towards the coast!

 

Lessons learnt

 

The radio for us VFR people is not just so we can listen to people getting told off when they roam towards controlled airspace, or to listen to Singapore airlines departing on it’s long trip.

 

The transponder is not just a pretty flashing light with a bunch on numbers next to it.

 

Even though VMC is >5km visibility (at the height I was), when one relatively high speed aircraft and one high speed aircraft are heading for each other, 5km (or even the 8 mile gap reported by the controller) doesn’t give you much time!

 

Big thanks

 

Big thanks to the controller at Brisbane centre!

 

Big thanks to my instructor(s) for teaching me how to use the equipment properly!

 

 

[BLA82]

Great Thread, thanks for sharing the experiance.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, good story, thanx for shareing.

 

A good outcome, which had a small chance of going the other way..

 

A little concerning however is a key statement you made, "i decided to push on for a few more minutes".. I'm not picking on you, but at that stage you were already pushing the vmc criteria. 1000 ft vertical and 1500 meters horizontal seperation from cloud..

 

Now, i wasn't there so i don't know how much cloud there was, what type or anything like that. Obviously if your flying around and theres very few clouds in the sky then avoiding them by 1000 ft is a bit of overkill. But, if you were flying towards the haze and rising terrain and the cloud base was lowering above you, then perhaps an earlier rather then later descision to bug out would be the better one..

 

Just something to think about... good job on the radio and the descision making re the traffic..

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

I'm not picking on you, but at that stage you were already pushing the vmc criteria. 1000 ft vertical and 1500 meters horizontal seperation from cloud..

At 2500', the VMC requirement is to be clear of cloud (& 5000m viz) provided radio equipped (which Pabloako obviously was)

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest Pabloako]

Thanks John. That was the was 'rule' what I was going by... At the time of the radio calls from Brisbane I was approximately 2000 feet above ground level and very easily in sight of the ground (and water due to the previous day's rain). I didn't have much chance of going past Kilcoy though as I would have needed to climb more due to the terrain, which I couldn’t do.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

yes, apolagies, i forgot about the 3000 ft thing..

 

ps, is it class G under the step there at coloundra??

 

check this out, this is an extract from an article in the AOPA mag.

 

Class G

 

More than 1,200 ft above the surface, but less than 10,000 ft MSL

 

Day1 sm500 ft below

 

1,000 ft above

 

2,000 ft horizontal

 

And this is straight from the vfr flight guide..

 

When at or below 3000 feet AMSL or 1000 feet AGL, whichever is the higher:

 

• Minimum Flight Visibility - 5000 metres (2.7 nautical miles);
   
   
  
• Minimum Distance from Cloud, Horizontal - clear of cloud and in sight of ground or water; and
   
   
  
• Minimum Distance from Cloud, Vertical - clear of cloud and in sight of ground or water
   
   
  

 

cheers

 

 

[BLA82]

Just wanted to add my two cents worth, Pabloako NEVER said he was going to push on indicating he was concerned. He said carry on ie monitoring the situation and planning for alternatives. I think this was a great case of what we are taught in Human Factors and exactly the corect way to deal with it. There was an issue with the twin engine aircraft and the decision was made to return and fly another day even though he was "still legal"

 

Great Job mate:thumb_up::thumb_up::thumb_up:

 

 

[Guest Pop-top]

Great Story and very interesting to read, especially for Noobs like me.

 

I haven't had the chance to talk to ATC as yet, but am very much looking forward to it. I visited the Adelaide Approach and Tower about a year ago and it was fantastic. They were very friendly and showed me how all their equipment works etc.

 

If your like me and enjoy listening to the big planes departing and arriving you should definitely arrange a tower visit and

 

Oceania/Pacific Airport Feeds | Live Air Traffic Control Audio Feeds | LiveATC.net

 

 

[Guest Cloudsuck]

Well done Pabloako, and a good story. I was shouted down on this very forum for suggesting the same as you. Tansponders are a great safety feature in heavy traffic, class G areas. I get advisories all the time from Brisbane Centre/Radar. They provide a great service.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Although it was very much VMC, I too got a warning last weekend from ADL approach, just east of South Para. "2 aircraft on converging headings." Didn't turn out to be too much of a threat, but good to know someone was watching.

 

Ironically, the bobbing useless compas in turbulance in lieu of a proper DG made things safer as I was slightly left of track - I was supposed to be where he was! (and probably also 500ft above him by the time we passed)

 

 

[poteroo]

Over tiger country, and under CTA steps, you need to be aware that people will fly at non-hemispherical levels - usually as close to the cloud base as they can if under 3000amsl. In WA, the area between Armadale-Canning Dam-Mt Dale is notable for some close calls.

 

If you are TXP equipped - use it, and get some benefit from your tax funded ATC.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest Pabloako]

If you are TXP equipped - use it, and get some benefit from your tax funded ATC.

quote]

 

Since you put it that way... I don't mind paying my tax bill now!

[Ben Longden]

See... using the transponder does pay off!

 

Well done, and thanks for sharing that story.

 

Ben

 

 

[Adrian Lewer]

good thread, on the other hand, I had my area freq and TX on and accidentally wandered to close to moorabbin airspace, heard an aircraft call melb radar and report my position (I was described as a jabiru ultralight thing) I switched over to moorabbin TWR, then I replied callsign Etc and where I was and what I was doing Apologized and was directed by Moorabbin TWR.

 

Felt like a dickhead but problem solved for all concerned,

 

 

[Relfy]

Good story Pablo. I was doing my first training flights over Kingaroy on Sunday and there were also a few warbirds there buzzing around. It was a great day and it's a shame you couldn't make it. It did look a bit cloudy though down towards Kilcoy.

 

2.3hrs in the log book and more to come!

 

 

[Ben Longden]

good thread, on the other hand, I had my area freq and TX on and accidentally wandered to close to moorabbin airspace, heard an aircraft call melb radar and report my position (I was described as a jabiru ultralight thing) I switched over to moorabbin TWR, then I replied callsign Etc and where I was and what I was doing Apologized and was directed by Moorabbin TWR.Felt like a dickhead but problem solved for all concerned,

I bet your professionalism stunned the other pilot. Well done.:thumb_up:

 

Ben

 

 

[Mazda]

Just don't rely on it too much. In Class G ATC has no requirement at all to give traffic information VFR to VFR, and if they are busy, they won't. You won't hear Sydney Radar giving traffic to VFR aircraft in the training area because there are too many aircraft. That's the problem - this alerting only really works when there is hardly any traffic.

 

Plus of course there is no transponder requirement in Class G anyway, so remember that the other aircraft may not have even had one, let alone had one correctly selected to ALT. Maybe there was another one out there that ATC couldn't see!

 

Of course use everything available to you. If you have a transponder, use it, but remember that not everyone may have one fitted or turned on. Even if they do, don't expect ATC to give you traffic on other VFR aircraft all the time, because they won't!

 

Keep your eyes open!!

 

Recently someone in a Cessna flew outbound right over a VFR inbound reporting point, at the inbound reporting altitude, while we were inbound at the same level. It was a bit hazy so we had nav lights, strobes and landing light all on, and the aircraft is a highly visible colour too. Bright colour, flashing lights, but the other pilot didn't see us ahead. Waggled wings. Still the other guy didn't see, so we took evasive action, and still the Cessna flew on, completely oblivious to our presence.

 

 

[40years]

Minor correction, Poteroo; ATC is no longer taxpayer-funded. It is user-pays, and that means mainly payments by the airlines. Airservices is, in fact required to return a dividend to its sole shareholder, the Government. CASA, on the other hand...

 

 

[Paul Willett]

Just don't rely on it too much. In Class G ATC has no requirement at all to give traffic information VFR to VFR, and if they are busy, they won't. You won't hear Sydney Radar giving traffic to VFR aircraft in the training area because there are too many aircraft. That's the problem - this alerting only really works when there is hardly any traffic.Plus of course there is no transponder requirement in Class G anyway, so remember that the other aircraft may not have even had one, let alone had one correctly selected to ALT. Maybe there was another one out there that ATC couldn't see!

 

Of course use everything available to you. If you have a transponder, use it, but remember that not everyone may have one fitted or turned on. Even if they do, don't expect ATC to give you traffic on other VFR aircraft all the time, because they won't!

 

Keep your eyes open!!

 

Recently someone in a Cessna flew outbound right over a VFR inbound reporting point, at the inbound reporting altitude, while we were inbound at the same level. It was a bit hazy so we had nav lights, strobes and landing light all on, and the aircraft is a highly visible colour too. Bright colour, flashing lights, but the other pilot didn't see us ahead. Waggled wings. Still the other guy didn't see, so we took evasive action, and still the Cessna flew on, completely oblivious to our presence.

Mazda is on the money here.

 

Good that you were listening on the 'appropriate' frequency, and good that you had TXPDR ON as well as with ALT selected (This is really important - no ALT = no Mode C, and lots of nuisance alerts on TCAS with overflying aircraft in Class C, as well as providing the controller with no situational awareness in the vertical sense)

 

ATC will not, normally, provide an unannounced traffic alert like that - the most likely reason is that the controller noticed you - hard to do with the number of aircraft around the BN area in Class G at times, and that he/she deemed an alert was neccessary under a duty of care provision - but it was not required under an Air Traffic Services provision.

 

Nothing stops you howeverm requesting it - i.e. a RAS/RIS - Radar Advisory Service/Radar Information service. Workload permitting the controller will identify you, and provide you with a snapshot traffic, position or navigation advisory, and if you request, an ongoing Radar Information Service.

 

Obviously you must be TXPDR equipped, Radar Identified, and you must remain on the VHF ATC frequency until such time as Radar Services are Terminated and you are instructed Frequency change approved. If you leave the frequency without this, ATC willl declare a 'phase' on you, and this may initiate a SAR operation to 'find' you!

 

RAS/RIS costs you nothing directly - use it. (or lose it - the BN RAS Frequencies are often combined with CG APP, not only if it gets quiet, but also due to staffing issues.)

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I may have also posted this somewhere before, but I'll mention it again. I have just recently fitted a Transponder to my plane, and I am likeing it more and more. Previously used them of course when flying private GA in the States, where not to have one is close to suicidal.

 

I regulary commute 40 mns up the coast from my home base. To avoid Townsville Class C we have to go between a small range and more high country. Commonly called 'running the Gauntlet', the passage through is narrow, with a 1500 ridge in the middle and ofter very bumpy, if there is any wind happening. If there is cloud, which is often, you go through at the best height you can. There are few options for about ten minutes if the noise stops, in the pass.

 

At the Southern entrance you go right through the final approach path for the main 01 runway at Townsville, so I am always looking and expecting traffic in that area.

 

Class C bottom there is 2500'. This particular morning (prior to fitting the TX) I'm in the danger area, monitoring approach with the correct QNH, and by choice just a tad below 2500', no cloud. Approach is talking to Virgin 296 (didn't know there were still that many!) and clears him down to 3000' for a visual approach 01.

 

I'm out the right window looking for him, but I thought he would still be a bit out.

 

Couldn't spot him, so look foward again. SURPRISE !!.. the whole top half of the Lightwing windscreen if filled with banking 737 !! far too close for my liking. If the pilots didn't see me, I'm sure some of the passengers did !!. It would have made a great shot..no camera..no time.. shaking too much anyway !!. I think 'wake turbulance' as he was moving, and dropped a couple a hundred feet, but luckly got none. Not the type of area where you want to be fighting for control either.

 

I listened on approach expecting the 737 pilot to report close traffic, but heard nothing relating to me.

 

We technically were both legal, I was below 2500' and clear of cloud, and he was above 2500' and in class C. I estimated his height above me to be not more than 350-400' and possibly lower !. He was cleared down to 3000' but I think he had come lower.

 

Now with the transponder fitted, I will be squarking 1200 Mode C with alt, to both Approach control, and hopefully also to another aircrafts' TCAS, if they have it turned on.

 

I often fly this same route up to four times a week, and I am happy that I now have the transponder up and running.................................................................