Stopping engine in flight

[Geoff]

I have not been able to find anything in the ops manual (dosn.t mean its not there) about shutting down the engine and going gliding. Has anyone any knowledge on this.

 

 

[BigPete]

My instructor stopped the engine during training once (motor failure - try and make the strip) we glided for a good five minutes.

 

Didn't mind it at all, nice and quiet AND the hour meter wasn't ticking over - FREE Time.

 

He told me that I was never to do it (turn off motor) and I haven't.

 

regards

 

 

[Guest AusDarren]

I'm affraid I don't agree with an instructor turning off the big fan.

 

all to easy for a simulated emergency to become real.

 

Accepted practise is to reduce the thottle to Idle.

 

 

[Admin]

Hi, unfortunately I do not have my rule book with me but I do recall that it is illegal to turn the engine off in flight under "normal" circumstances - i.e. if that fan is still blowing, you're still going and you're not about to start mowing.

 

And if I recall correctly this is one of the reasons why powered gliders have trouble being registered RA-Aus.

 

That's if my brain is still working and hasn't been unduly affected proportionate to the amount of Scotch consumed last night

 

 

 

[Ultralights]

I assume Motor Gliders would be the exeption to the rule if there is

 

one, i too would NOT recommend shutting the engine down in

 

flight! i have never done it, but it has happened once unintentionally.

 

i would hazard a guess that the excessive cooling of a stopped engine

 

in flight would make it a little more difficult than normal to restart

 

it.

 

Ultralights

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

From memory (haven't got the ops manual with me) CFI's are allowed to do it for training but no one else e.g. senior or normal instructors. I'll have a look through the regs and see if I can find it.

 

I can see why people wouldn't want to do it but I believe if in the right situation it is a real learning experiance.Having the engine idling and having a stoped prop are very different. As long as the instructor is switch on they should be able to stop the situation getting out of hand, after all thats what they are there for!

 

 

[Ultralights]

a windmilling prop will create a lot more drag than a stationary one.

 

 

[Geoff]

No Chris the motor in the jab will not windmill and you can not restart by air alone need the stater as the jab has to spin at 300 rpm for the to got spark not likeimpulse mags.The only prob with cooling is you need to re warm the motor again before applying full revs. And yes we have a motor glider reg RAA in our club.

 

 

[Student Pilot]

With GA you used to have to do an airstart with training. If the engine did stop inflight the reason it stopped might not let you restart it anyway. What it did show was that you have to have a VERY steep angle to get the prop turning again.

 

I think it gives you an idea just what the Aircraft can do with the prop stopped, if done over or inrange of an airfield with somebody trained and expirenced in it then I can see nothing wrong with it. The Aircraft handles completely differently with the prop stopped than windmilling.

 

Interesting to see if any schools still teach this? Authur, how goes the Oaks training? anythingsimilar?

 

 

[Wilfred]

A blonde went to a flight school insisting she wanted to

 

learn to fly that day. As all the planes were currently in

 

use, the owner agreed to instruct her on how to pilot the

 

helicopter solo by radio.

 

He took her out, showed her how to start it and gave her the

 

basics, and sent her on her way.

 

After she climbed 1000 feet, she radioed in. "I'm doing

 

great! I love it! The view is so beautiful, and I'm starting

 

to get the hang of this."

 

After 2000 feet, she radioed again, saying how easy it was

 

becoming to fly. The instructor watched her climb over 3000

 

feet, and was beginning to worry that she hadn't radioed in.

 

A few minutes later, he watched in horror as she crashed

 

about half a mile away. He ran over and pulled her from the

 

wreckage.

 

When he asked what happened, she said: "I don't know!

 

Everything was going fine, but as I got higher, I was

 

starting to get cold. I can't remember anything after I

 

turned off the big fan."

 

 

[Geoff]

Good one turtle

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

I was always told it was illegal and although possibly not in cao 95.55 I'm almost certain it's in the CAO's and applies to GA too, with exception of motorgliders. I recall there was a messy discussion on this once before in AUF days whena dealer started importing motor-gliders in AUF rego, however the rule's didn't cover stopping the engine in flight. Motor Gliders are generally only allowed to be registered by the gliding mob through a gentleman's agreement between the 2 organisations, however a few have "slipped" through to the RAA- one of the pioneering ones crashed recently.

 

 

[Geoff]

Well I've been through theOps manualbook two times and the only reference to stopping the motor in flight is on 3.04-3[ Note Flight Training with the engine stopped may only be conduced with a CFI or their delegate in controlled situations in suitable flying conditions]Now to me this means "while training", so as I'm not training I can turn my plane into a glider any time I think it is safe to do so. I do hope that I am not breaking any regs? I also was a Gliding Instructor for 6 years.

 

 

[Student Pilot]

I was always told it was illegal and although possibly not in cao 95.55 I'm almost certain it's in the CAO's and applies to GA too, with exception of motorgliders.

Why was it taught then? sounds a bit like one of those urban myths.

 

 

[BigPete]

My Instructor is a CFI - he did it (stopped the motor) when I was nearly finished with my training.

 

It made me appreciate what was actually happening - I was gliding, and I had no power to rely on or go back to.

 

I set up the aircraft for maximum glide etc etc....

 

We were very close to the strip at the time.

 

It was the CFI's personal aircraft - he knew it intmately.

 

If my motor stops I will feel more comfortable as I've allready experienced the situation.

 

regards

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

I agree with Adam that it is alearning experience. Dead stick isdefinately different to closed throttle especially with 4-stroke where there is significantly more thrust at idle (compared to a 2-stroke). It also prepares you psychologically for the silence AND the pressure of having to land it first time.

 

The engine was turned off (unanounced) during my ultralight flight test and I still practise it periodically. TBH it never occurred to me that it might not be legal or isGeoffs interpretation of the manual correct ?

 

If not, its a good job that there isn't acompetition scene here as the spot landings are all dead stick too.

 

John

 

 

[Geoff]

Yer Pete Cliff has a habit of doing that. If is a good day he makes me thermal back to the strip and land, and then goes crook that we have to start the motor to taxi back to the hanger

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Geoff, you've hit the nail on the head... only with an instructor and at no other time.

 

From memory, I think stalls are the same? but I might be wrong.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Geoff, you've hit the nail on the head... only with an instructor and at no other time.From memory, I think stalls are the same? but I might be wrong.

Hi Clem, as you have a bucket more experience than me to draw on and are no doubt right . Logic however says that I'd be surprised if that were the case - though with no qualification to say that:big_grin:

 

My understanding is that the POH sets out the acceptable use of the a/c. It is up to the pilot to ensure that they remain current and well versed in all phases of flight that are acceptable within the limits set out in the POH and obviously the CAOs - for instance many a/c that are registered here, under 95.55 1.6 for instance, are accepted for aerobatics elsewhere but not within the CAO here.

 

 

My favourite P92 image but I'd be shot if I tried it here!! (Note the IAS well back in the white arc getting very slow coming over the top and also the far from wings level - is he rolling off?)

 

If the POH says no spins then that means no spins, for the reasons that we all know. I can also understand the issue about not stopping the engine in flight - and I bet it is not normal ops in terms of the POH.

 

However normal flight manouevres should not be precluded from your ongoing regime of competency maintenance. So why are stalls normal flight manouevres? I reckon they are, but only insofar as you want to be able to recognise the onset of a stall in the particular aircraft type and in a variety of flight situations, reliably and quickly and to similarly recover from it with minimum loss of height and no unusual departures into other nastier places. They are also OK in the POH. And that for me means practise from time to time.

 

I'd be interested to know what the Ops Manager thinks rather than my idle and no doubt misguided speculation.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Geoff]

Clem the book states "in training" I do not believe it is against the regsto stop the motor as I am not" In Training" Nor is it against the reg to practice stalls. Geoff

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

You'll need to check with Ops manager, as I said I recall a s*hit fight erupted between an importer and AUF about a motor glider not being able to shut down engine in flight under AUF, however feathering of the prop was ok.

 

Actually, I just remembered, an aerobatic fellow (GA instrucor) told me it was illegal and that when he did a display at the Tyabb Airshow in a C152 Aerobat and he shut the engine down in flight he had to get CASA approval to do it.

 

I'm quite certain now... I had a mental block there, but I'm now convinced. I just need to find the regs to support my recollections. Stay tuned, I usually find them eventually after some trolling.

 

 

[pylon500]

Wow, this thread filled up quick! :ah_oh:

 

So, having also not looked closely at the OP's Manual, I would take the interperetation: "CFI or their delegate" to then allow Senior Instructors to also demonstrate this proceedure providing they had some form of proven ability to safely do so.

 

I'm a Senior Instructor with 250 hours as a glider pilot, and usually give all my students at least one exposure to quiet flight, and regularly do it in my own aircraft as well (check my avatar) ;)

 

Some quick facts;

 

1. Your glide is a little better with the prop stopped, the bigger the prop, the greater the difference.

 

2. If you glide for any more than say one whole minute, you should treat restarting as with a COLD engine, choke/prime, set to idle, crank and allow to warm before gradually adding power.

 

3. Back in the OLD days if an engine stopped, the number one thing was to get the nose down. These days the performance of some machines is such that you are better off pulling UP to use the excess speed for height, moral, know your aeroplane.

 

4. dont forget about shock cooling if you decide to turn off, throttle back and watch for the temps to drop off before shutting down.

 

And now the light

 

 

at the end of the lesson!  

 

Arthur.

 

 

[Student Pilot]

The thing that surprises first off is it's nearly as noisey with the engine off.

 

Do you go all the way and land Aurthur? I know this bloke (so do you) who coming home from work every day in the Riverina in a Callair used to go to 5000 feet and after cooling the engine down with low power settings, shut down. With a glide angle of about 1/1 he used to arrive at his home strip, land and roll up to the tie downs, stopping so he could just get out and tie down. No worry about warming a cold engine so you can power up.

 

Is it worth a trip to Taree to see any progress?

 

 

[Geoff]

Way to go pylon, Last Sunday a very good day good thermals did 200n miles on 9lt

 

 

[ratbag]

Some interesting comments, my thoughts are that shutting the engine down should be part of training provided it is done by an approved person [instructor etc]. It is a very different experience the first time "the fan" stops for real or by choice.

 

My first engine failure happened on my first flight in my own plane after getting my license and although I didn't think so at the time, looking back now it was probably the best thing that could have happened. I learnt more in the next 30 seconds than I had learnt in the previous 20 hours. I have to say that I nearly didn't fly again but it has made me very cautious about flying anywhere where there isn't somewhere to go if things go quiet.

 

I practice engine outs on a regular basis and providing you are sensible it is quite safe. I wouldn't do it on a public aerodrome as it is illeagle to do it but it gives me peace of mind that I know my plane and I also know that I can handle the situation if it crops up. In my opinion if you know you can land the plane without the motor, you will be less stressed and less likely to make a stupid decision that might result in damage to the plane and more importantly the pilot when the situation arises. Engine failures ,while they are not that common an occurence, should be viewed as an inevatable factor in flying not a 'one day it might happen'. The longer you go without one, the closer you are getting to one so "be prepared" is my motto.

 

Regards Mark