Stopping engine in flight

[pylon500]

G'Day Glen, ;)

 

Sorry, no visable progress at Taree yet, DA with Council. ;)

 

Callair with 1:1 glide!? :ah_oh: surely better than that?, at least 2:1

 

Our tuggy could switch off on the landing roll and reverse park on the side of the strip!

 

Yes, I've been known to go all the way to the ground, and into my parking spot! ;)

 

This is often after a streamer cutting run, and you never know if you have streamer stuck on the radiator or wrapped around the exhaust. :;)2:

 

Had a hang-glider pilot as student some years back and at the end of the lesson we were at 4,000ft cruising back to 'base' at low power in the LightWing when we encountered fairly strong lift.

 

We looked at each other and I said "Go for it", so he hooked in and climbed about 500 odd feet at low power.

 

I then pulled the throttle to idle, and we still went up!

 

At 5,000ft I shut the motor down wondering how slowly we would descend in the thermol in our draggy old two stroke LightWing with a big three blade GSC up front?

 

WE ACTUALLY CLIMBED AT 100fpm!

 

Good Days.

 

Arthur.

 

 

[Guest DaShadow]

The rules are (as confirmed from CASA) that in a raa aircraft the engine cant be off for take off or landing but can be off for other phases of flight !!

 

This means you cant be winch launced or tow launched (because its not in the RAA training sylabus) and you cant land with the engine off - in case you need to go around, but for the rest of the flight its ok.

 

Suits me in the Pipistrel Sinus i occasionally get the oppertunity to fly and soar, anyway i wouldnt like to land engine off just in case !!

 

I beleive it really makes me a better pilot because one day when the 150 stopped i didnt even raise a sweat getting back to the ground, it was purely instinctive and very relaxed.

 

This is the rules for raa planes according to casa

 

 

[Ross]

Hi All

 

The Jabiru instructions for air starts requirestopping the prop windmilling by pulling up near the stall.

 

Engage the starter motor to get the motor to spin at +300 rpm to get a spark.

 

Do not engage the starter motor with a slowly spinning prop or ring gear damage etc may result!

 

Regards

 

 

[TechMan]

The rules are (as confirmed from CASA) that in a raa aircraft the engine cant be off for take off or landing but can be off for other phases of flight !!This is the rules for raa planes according to casa

Who did you get this information from at CASA? Is it in writing?

 

Clem: Have you found anything in the regs regarding this issue?

 

Lee is on inspections and will reply in due course

 

Chris

 

 

[hiperlight]

There are some incidents in one's life that are indelibly imprinted on one's memory.

 

One such incident is the training exercise required in RAAF basic flying training in DH 82's:

 

"#24. Re-starting the Engine in Flight" which was not to be practiced solo.

 

My instructor was P.J. Gallagher and after three attempts to stop the prop by stalling, recovering and re-climbing to about 5000 feet over Hoxton Park (an abandoned airstrip in those days) I managed to stop the prop by stalling the aircraft in a vertical position. The aircraft slid backwards before falling nose first towards terra firma. I kept it in a vertical dive (and I mean VERTICAL). The prop moved when we reached 145mph. I think the wings fall off a DH 82 at 150mph.

 

I recall that Pat (an exfighter pilot from WW2) made some expletive through the Gosport Tube and thanked someone.

 

Bruce

 

hiperlight

 

 

[Geoff]

Christhe only reference to stopping the motor in flight is on 3.04-3

 

 

[Ross]

Hi Arthur

 

I always thought that if you wanted to climb you had to find air where the VSI or Vario was in positive territory!

 

REgards

 

 

[pylon500]

Yes Ross, That's the idea.

 

Up till the point that I thought it would be cool film the climb, I had been managing about 100 fpm. :big_grin:

 

But when I changed to fly left handed and operate the camera, it all got a bit messy.

 

Still, for something that glides at around 450 fpm in dead air, even 50 to 100 fpm down is fun.

 

Arthur.

 

 

[Admin]

Ok ALL, I have received a reply from Lee on the question of Engine Off whilst in flight (whilst engine off on the ground is a different matter ) and whilst I would probably agree with most of you that it can be a valuable learning experience I would totally agree with Lee below because IT IS DANGEROUS and you must ask the question "Do I want to maybe die just to get the experience?"

 

Ian,

 

I have received an email through Chris from you with regard to the Engine Off Operations in RA-Aus aircraft. I am a little unclear as to the context of the question however I will offer the following information. The RA-Aus stance is that we administer powered heavier than air aircraft less than 600kgs and as such do not condone engine off operations unless under ideal conditions with CFI in a training role. As with any General Aviation aircraft (Cessna, Piper and the like) there is no known rule that prevents the engine shutdown on the aircraft in flight, however it must be stressed that engine off operation in all it’s forms is hazardous unless properly mitigated by procedure and training. The RA-Aus does not provide soaring training and as such does not condone engine off operations to that end. A safety case has arisen with a fatal accident that occurred in an RA-Aus registered aircraft in SE QLD where the PIC tried to thermal away from the circuit at 300’ AGL on base and spun in. This highlights and has given rise to an amendment to the Operations Manual that will prohibit engine off operations in the circuit under normal conditions unless under the command of a CFI in ideal conditions. Even then this operation is hazardous and the CFI assumes full responsibility for the outcome of the sequence.

 

 

[Guest paul]

I had reason once to turn off the fan over a very long airstrip on final and was surprised just how much further it glides. Now I am not suggesting by any means that you should BUT how about getting the instructor to do a check flight and try it with him (or her) it might just save your life and make the aircraft reusable again

 

 

[Admin]

I had reason once to turn off the fan over a very long airstrip on final and was surprised just how much further it glides. Now I am not suggesting by any means that you should BUT how about getting the instructor to do a check flight and try it with him (or her) it might just save your life and make the aircraft reusable again

- Hi Paul, welcome to the forums and hope you enjoy your stay - in your post would you mean CFI instead of instructor?I got my licence with the old CFI at Wang who also took me for my x-Country which I stuffed up beautifully by forgetting to centre myself with the runway before I headed of to Brown Bros but it wasn't very far away so luckily I found it. He also made me come back from near Benalla at 500 AGL so I couldn't get my 3 reference points easily - he still passed me and I learnt a lot. I think he went up and started working for the RFDS.

 

Anyway have fun and enjoy the site!

 

 

[pylon500]

I'm still a little confused by this continual referencing to CFI's as if they are the only people that really know how to fly!?

 

Back with the AUF, you had four choices; Student, Pilot, Instructor and CFI.

 

This was (I assume) based on competancy, ie, Students can't fly, Pilots can fly, Instructors fly well enough to teach others and CFI's were willing to take the responsibilty for all said flying.

 

Then the concept of Junior and Senior Instructors was introduced as well as Pilot Examiner above CFI.

 

Now when reading the OP's manual, the situation appears to be; Students still can't fly, Pilots can fly, Juniors instructors can barely fly but must be watched by a CFI and cannot send solo's, Senior Instructors can fly and teach, but must have permission from their CFI to teach without his/her presence and can only send first solo's after the CFI has also checked the student.

 

Am I going a bit off topic here? :;)2:

 

Oh yeah, dead stick training; I guess it's up to the CFI to make the choice on responibility of doing, or allowing demonstration of engine off operations by the instructors.

 

I know there is always that problem of 'monkey see, monkey do', but I guess you just have to impress on students and solo pilots, 'Do as I SAY, not as I do' ;)

 

This will never change. :;)4:

 

Arthur.

 

 

[hiperlight]

I really don't want to drag this subject on and on...but, I'm fairly sure in the 1950's civil training for a PPL banned restarting the engine as an exercise in flight training, but was part of training for aerobaticsand the RAAF requiredit in basic training, but only with an instructor.

 

Of course in those days-of-yore most 'light' aircraft did not have a self starter.

 

There are a few things that I don't want to be confronted with and they include an inflight fire, a catastrophic airframe failure and an engine failure.

 

Why anyone would want to shut down a perfectly good engine is beyond me (unless the aircraft is a powered glider). Once stopped there is no guarantee that the little beast will start again.

 

Bruce

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

OK so my Lazair is not in the same class as what most are relating to here, but go easy guys. to have the"boss" start going thru the regsto clear up any grey areas may affect what i consider NORMAL ops for my aircraft. I havenearly always landed with my engines off. sometimes i shut them downon short finals, sometimes in the circuit and sometimes higher. WHY. basically, safety. the light wing loading and a reasonable glide and sink rate coupled with two engines with a slightly high idle to keep them from shaking apart results in a landing of around two hundred +feet. with the narrow undercarrige and a bit of gusty wind i find myself in the window of 'thump' for way to long. with the engines off i can reduce this to under 75ft., and actually have some weight on the wheels for most of the roll out. Thermals are a bit hard to avoid with a wing loading of < 3lbs sq ft.

 

I wonder if the word "Dispensation' is in the RAAus Op Regs??

 

Thanks, interesting to see the views mentioned above. Oz

 

 

[Geoff]

Well that is a new view on things Ozzie, I'm not familiar with a Lazair any Chance of a pic of the plane?

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Hi I think this it it.

 

 

 

[pylon500]

Been there, Done that! ;)

 

I had to hold my camera though.

 

Arthur.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

This is a better overall shot of a series 1 Lazair with engines shut down. cockpit is not as cramped as it looks as this pilot is a big boy.

 

I am nowresearching on replacing the engines with electric ones.

 

looking forward to vibration free, quiet flying with instant inflight restarts. (hence the query elsewhere) .

 

 

[BigPete]

Hey Ozzie,

 

I love your 'plane - it must be as close to being a bird ( a powered one any way) that you can get.

 

I'm a big softie - like my comforts so I'm all wrapped up cosy in a Jabiru 160 - BUT we have a connection .......

 

NO BLOODY CUP HOLDERS - AAARRRGGGG!!!!

 

regards

 

PS How do you hold your map??

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

At 35mph cruise, you want a map.??

 

Cup holders came standard on the two seater and thefully enclosed Eitestill it is pretty good for a thirty year old design. just got to get rid of those pesky infernal engines.