Ya know what i hate??

[shags_j]

Yeah but it's right near my house. I used to pay that fee every time i had a lesson. Approximately $328 an hour to learn at archerfield. Chews up funds real quick. And that's in the dodgy aircraft identified in another thread.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

You'll all be welcome at YPPF too, no landing fee for ultralights! (let's see how long that lasts, but the C152 is only $11 anyway, so should be even less than that.)

 

Doing my first CTA flight in two weeks (Nav 4 out of 6) transiting ADL CTR down to Goolwa.

 

 

[shags_j]

Sweet. Well thanks to hopey and dopey (read krudd and swan) $900 should help me finish off my cross country endorsement. Should be able to visit some of these nice places. Just gotta find an aircraft to rent...

 

 

[Mazda]

OK, so perhaps his calls weren't up to standard and he hadn't followed procedures. I agree that is poor airmanship.

 

But there's another side to this. Why on earth shouldn't he be able to fly his own aircraft on circuits at a private strip?

 

Australian military airspace is a complete joke. There's nothing fast at Nowra anyway, it's a helicopter base, and the seasprites are gounded so they are flying Agustas etc - civilian types. If a helicopter pilot can't spot someone doing circuits at an airstrip, I'd hate to send them to a war.

 

We must be the only country in the world like this - most countries just don't have enough room for vast areas of military airspace just for training purposes. Pilots in the UK fly all the time in Class G airspace with Tornados flying around at low level. I'm not talking about Agusta helicopters, but supersonic capable front line fighters flying around well below 500 ft right up into the high flight levels. There's no clearance requirement for GA aircraft in Class G, no transponder requirement.

 

They have tiny restricted areas, just around the fields and over firing ranges. Their training areas are in normal airspace shared with everyone else.

 

In the US they have MOAs, which require some common sense but not a clearance.

 

I'm sick to death of the military sanitised airspace. If they can't spot slow bug smashers, what hope do we have when they are being attacked for real? Give us our airspace back!

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

We must be the only country in the world like this - most countries just don't have enough room for vast areas of military airspace just for training purposes. Pilots in the UK fly all the time in Class G airspace with Tornados flying around at low level. I'm not talking about Agusta helicopters, but supersonic capable front line fighters flying around well below 500 ft right up into the high flight levels. There's no clearance requirement for GA aircraft in Class G, no transponder requirement.

Quite correct Mazda. With very few exceptions UK military airfields only have a 2000' 2nm ATZ where clearance is mandatory. Generally they also surrounded by a much larger MATZ where clearance isn't mandatory but highly advisable.

 

Recreational flying organisations there have also had to fight very hard to resist mandatory Mode-S transponders in Class-G

 

John

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

I also hear that if they have to go into controlled airspace, UK pilots prefer it to be military - the controllers are much friendlier and helpful than their civilian counterparts!

 

 

[Mazda]

Our military pilots are koalas - a protected species!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

They do have Learjet traffic at Nowra, and possible King-airs, don't know how many.................

 

 

[Mazda]

My point exactly. A civilian slow jet and a civilian twin turbo prop. Both are the sort of things you'd see operating out of Bankstown, and even from private strips in Class G.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Not to mention the business business jets, Fokkers and Saabs at Olympic Dam and the 737s at Ayer's Rock. Just because you have fast movers doesn't mean you need it to be controlled.

 

 

[Mazda]

There is an Air/ground at Ayers Rock, but it is also catering for fare paying passengers on RPT flights.

 

 

[Gibbo]

Just wait till the new strip at Olympic dam is built then the fun will start.

 

Feel like being in the circuit with a 747 direct from asia with a 767 from perth following closely behind. Proposed is a 4200m x 35m strip as the old one is going to be a massive hole.

 

Roxby downs pop. 12000 with another 2-3000 imported workers passing thru every couple of weeks.

 

Gibbo

 

 

[shags_j]

I did a couple of hours at cooloongatta airport. Coming back from training area one day "Cessna XXX enter circuit base ahad of the 727", Was a lot of fun at the time. Hate to have to do it now though.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Was returning from my 300 nm GA license nav one day in California, in a C152. Was on the last leg, being controlled, and talking to 'Travis Approach' which is a huge C-5A Galaxy and KC-10 transport base.

 

Whilst pretty much over the top the controller let me know there would be traffic coming up on my right, and to report visual. Looking over I spot this KC-10 tanker just sitting there, same height just looking at me. He dropped his nose and descended ahead and below me. Pretty intimidating in a 152. I have many similiar storys like that whilst flying in California. The controllers are just so smooth and everybody fits in fine, regardless of what you are flying..................

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

A friend of mine had a similar thing happen to him in his trike whilst transiting past an RAF base in the UK - except it was a Harrier that came along side. A lot smaller but probably no less intimidating !

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I seem to recall Lee Ungerman had an interesting experience up here once in his Thruster which involved an F-111! Something about feeling the heat ?....................

 

 

[Guest keeffe]

Are people aware that CTAF mean's Common Traffic Advisory Frequency.

 

So for someone to say All stations in the xxxx CTAF sounds a bit silly.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

There's been a development..And lets just say im glad i didn't put him in..

 

This bloke rocked up to jaspers the other day, as soon as he spoke i reckognised the voice. He was asking about the airfield (jaspers) and didn't get out of his car.. He had a walking frame in the spare seat. It seems he HAS just recently moved to the area from the bush. He's had a shocking run the guy, he had some bizzare form of food poisioning that rendered him paralyzed. For 8 months he couldn't move from the neck down. This illness stripped the lining off all his nerves, he even went blind.. So to even be flying at all is an incredible achievment. I didn't tell him i knew who he was and why he was there, he's brining his acft out to our field to fly in future, so it would appear im gunna get the opportunity to help him out with all this CTA and radio stuff.. I hope the powers that be don't hit him to bad..

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Take care of him Merv, the man obviosly loves his flying.....................

 

 

[Guest Orion]

Operating within a controlled zone requires you to stick to the rules and that isr egardless of how tough life has treated you.

 

In fact just because of that you should value life more because you know easily it can end.

 

So flying in a controled zone without the right gear and authorizations puts other users at risk. Users who are authorizeed to be in that airspace.

 

Nice converstion to have with the family of a dead aviator.

 

"we arre sorry that your loved one is dead, yes he did the right thing, yes the other bloke shouldn't have been there, but give him a break he's had a tough time lately".

 

Give me a break.

 

Yes,the guy seems to have a hard time of it but that doesn't give him any right to risk anyone else. And being in an area you shouldn't be in an aircraft does just that.

 

Until the rules change, if you aren't authorized to be in a control zone then keep out.

 

Orion

 

 

[Mazda]

Orion give the guy a break.

 

Let's put this in perspective. What traffic do you think the guy was conflicting with? He wasn't operating out of Heathrow or LAX, he was at his own private strip doing circuits, and was monitoring the radio, and Nowra basically operates civilian helicopter types. I don't know where the strip was but it could have been 15 miles from Nowra. If he'd been operating out of somewhere like The Oaks he'd have lots more traffic and he wouldn't need a clearance, or a transponder.

 

If he was operating 3 miles from a Royal Air Force Tornado base in the UK (probably in terrible weather), he wouldn't need a clearance.

 

You can't say this guy was doing anything dangerous, when if he was doing the same thing around supersonic fighters in the UK it would be regarded as perfectly safe.

 

I agree he probably should have known, but who hasn't made a mistake? Instead of crucifying this poor guy, why don't we think about how we can get rid of all that no-go military airspace that is just used for flying training?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Orion, mate, i hope life has treated you well my friend.. It obviously has, otherwise you wouldn't make statements like that..

 

I intend to educate the dude, not be cold and idealistic with him.. I in no way indicated he should be exempt from the rules.. And no doubt The navy, CASA and the RAA won't cut him any slack because of his previous problems...I was cranky as hell when i heard his radio calls, but ive since calmed down, hopefully good can come of it and he will end up better for it..

 

And yes, Mazda's right, there's not much traffic around.. the odd chopper, and occasional leajet that climb out to umpteen thousand feet on departure. Or ride the ILS down. The ILS track is only 1 mile from our strip and the let down puts them almost at cct height when they go through, but we have never had an issue.. Because we communicate..

 

 

[Guest Orion]

Boys and Girls

 

You miss the point, its not about crucifying anyone. Far from it.

 

The point is rules are there to be followed. If you don't like the rules then work to get them changed but until they are changed abide by them. No ifs or buts.

 

Being where you shouldn't be in an aircraft has the potential and i say again potential to put at risk users who are supposed to be there.

 

I haven't suggested hanging the guy but he needs to know, understand and respect the rules regardless of his personal circumstances. He does not have the right to put others at risk. ignorance of the law isn't a defence ever and doesn't help the next of kin if an accident happens. Its not being cold or idealistic its factual. We all make mistakes noe are immune but when you break the rules you pay the price.

 

Glad to see you are going to educate him so good will come of it and thats more important than any penalty or santction that may or may not be imposed.

 

Not really interested about what you can and can't do in the UK its totally irelevant to this discussion this is Australia and there are plenty of places to fly where you don't have to broach controlled airspace. If my geography lessons serve me at all then the UK fits inside the land area of Victoria or therabouts so no doubt they have different issues and different priorities for sharing airspace.

 

I'm perfectly happy to not share airspace with military aircraft, those boys need to train and train well. suggest before we talk about them as being proteced species we may be better served as thinking of them as PROTECTIVE species and be thankful we have them and they are trained as well as they are. I certainly am.

 

Orion:big_grin:

 

 

[Ultralights]

What traffic do you think the guy was conflicting with?

you would be quite surprised by the number and types of aircraft operating out of Albatross regularly!

today, the RNZN was operating a PC3 Orion at Nowra, the RAAF HAwks are regulars, as well as the C17 on training flights from Richmond. not to mention the C130 Hercules doing troop drops, and the Learjet fleet of target towers. then there is the regular mail run with a Aerocommander 2 times a day.

 

on the rotary wing stuff, the Army Blackhawks use it as a base when doing training exercises onto the boats, and dropping SAS into the forests west of Nowra.

 

the RDFS and RAAF Kingairs regulars as well. even as i type this, i have heard 3 817 sqn SeaKings pass overhead.

 

all of these i have seen in the last month while working at Albartross 4 days a week.

 

 

[Riley]

Gentlemen

 

Never mind being either pedantic or full of christian charity, common sense and self preservation for everyone in the air, anywhere, dictates that we first agree and abide with Orion's post and, having done that, perhaps follow closely behind with Motzartmerv's approach. In the final crunch - there is no workable compromise to not following the rules that everyone else is (hopefully) following.