Ya know what i hate??

[Mazda]

Exactly Ultralights! Slow jets, transport aircraft and helicopters, not fast jets, and not doing firing and bombing. Just flying around, looking out of the window as they should do, because in a war not looking out will mean they won't last long. There are plenty of busier airports in Class G, some with aircraft carrying unsuspecting airline passengers who think every airport has a control tower.

 

Orion, I'd prefer that you didn't call me a boy. The comparison with the UK is important because if our pilots have to go to war, they won't be fighting fellow RAAF pilots, they'll be against sharp eyed foreigners used to looking out for traffic.

 

Our air force is viewed overseas as a joke. It's not because our pilots are not as good (they are) it is because they don't get the training, they barely get enough hours to be operational, and they rarely have to fly in airspace where they can be in conflict (or attacked) by anyone else. In many places in the world flying a fast jet means not only looking out for civilian aircraft, it is quite likely one of the allied airforce guys will take them on for a bit of sport.

 

I can't believe you are happy to be forced over tiger country so our military guys can do normal flying training without bug smashers. You are the one paying for your fuel, your aircraft hire, or your training. Those pilots are paid to fly, in fact, you pay them. So why shouldn't you be able to fly on a safer, shorter route, when you'll get more traffic flying through a civilian training area? No other country would put up with it!

 

I agree that rules are there to be followed, but times change and rules need to be updated - or do you still have someone walking in front of your car with a flag to warn the horses?

 

 

[Mazda]

Exactly Ultralights! Slow jets, transport aircraft and helicopters, not fast jets, and not doing firing and bombing. Just flying around, looking out of the window as they should do, because in a war not looking out will mean they won't last long. There are plenty of busier airports in Class G, some with aircraft carrying unsuspecting airline passengers who think every airport has a control tower.

 

Orion, I'd prefer that you didn't call me a boy. The comparison with the UK is important because if our pilots have to go to war, they won't be fighting fellow RAAF pilots, they'll be against sharp eyed foreigners used to looking out for traffic.

 

Our air force is viewed overseas as a joke. It's not because our pilots are not as good (they are) it is because they don't get the training, they barely get enough hours to be operational, and they rarely have to fly in airspace where they can be in conflict (or attacked) by anyone else. In many places in the world flying a fast jet means not only looking out for civilian aircraft, it is quite likely one of the allied airforce guys will take them on for a bit of sport.

 

I can't believe you are happy to be forced over tiger country so our military guys can do normal flying training without bug smashers. You are the one paying for your fuel, your aircraft hire, or your training. Those pilots are paid to fly, in fact, you pay them. So why shouldn't you be able to fly on a safer, shorter route, when you'll get more traffic flying through a civilian training area? No other country would put up with it!

 

I agree that rules are there to be followed, but times change and rules need to be updated - or do you still have someone walking in front of your car with a flag to warn the horses?

 

 

[Guest Orion]

Mazda

 

I didn't call you Boy !

 

Read the post again. Boys. lads . fella's. blokes. Guys

 

All interchangeable and not in any sense meant to be derogatory rather a salutation. Won't even bother with an apology as no offense meant nor intended. If you have managed to find offense suggest you take a Bex and have a lie down.

 

Fact is there is plenty of airspace thats not tiger country that doesn't conflict with military use so why mix it with them. If something goes wrong, in aircraft the size that we fly we'll likely come off second best.

 

Interesting that you make the comment about our airforce being viewed overseas as a joke, care to expand on that or just leave it as rumor. Interesting that several airforces come here to train and our pilots go o/s for training and exchange.

 

My 6 years in the service travelling o/s to many different countries as ground crew i can't honestly recall our airforce as being viewed as a joke. The service has improved in the years since i did my stint so i can only imagine that our reputation hasn't slipped that much. It insults the men and women who volunteer to protect us. Our flying is a privilidge their flying is necessary, to serve and protect us.

 

Your kidding with the comment about cars flags and walkers right.

 

Orion

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Orion, i'd quit while i was ahead if i were you.. You failed to realise one simple fact mate, not all members on this site are male, boys, lads or fella's..;), they started letting woman vote (and fly) quite some time ago i think..:thumb_up:

 

cheers

 

 

[Gibbo]

One factor is 'he just moved from the bush'.

 

I do a fair amount of bush flying on private strips and radio calls are not used a fair amount of the time. If he has spent a fair amount of time flying from his own strip out bush he would be very rusty on the radio calls and some adjustment to 'built up' area flying would be required.

 

How many complaints about AG pilots not using radio calls! (maybe on UHF!) Education in this case would resolve the issue.

 

I know quite a few PPL pilots who would struggle in controlled airspace just because they don't have a ongoing practice. ALL their flying is in remote areas.

 

Gibbo

 

 

[Guest Orion]

MotzartMerv

 

When did sex come into this discussion?

 

Rather glad women can vote and fly !

 

Cheers

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Lol...i was stirrin ya mate...Cause ya called Mazda a boy, she's' a she..:thumb_up:

 

 

[Admin]

[Guest Orion]

guessed that was the case, another problem with the typed word its hard to determine the sex of the writer, same as tone, you cant get that from a typed word.

 

Bugger.

 

Ok

 

from now on everyone will be boys and girls

 

Cheers

 

Kent

 

and yes admin now back to topic

 

 

[Mazda]

Thanks Merv! :thumb_up:

 

Orion, it is honourable that you think our forces are there to serve and protect, and I'm sure many of them are, however many of them enter to get free flying training and enough experience to earn the big bucks in the airlines when they get out.

 

The truth is that the RAAF is known in some parts as the "Royal Amateur Air Force", but if you worked on the ground you may not have heard that. Even some current and former members of the RAAF call themselves "koalas." Our pilots are sent overseas for more realistic training and more hours per year, because they sure don't get either here, and some of them struggle when they go overseas. The reason the overseas pilots come here is because it is an "exchange", so we can send people overseas too. I suppose the lure of sunny weather, beaches and being able to drink cold beer within 2 days of flying might be attractive to some!

 

I'm still amazed that you want to fly over tiger country rather than fly through safer airspace just because the military want to fly a few helicopters or Hercs in there, or even Hawks and Hornets. Our military airspace is so enormous that at times people have to fly a considerable distance off track, over high, rugged terrain, or over water. Australian military airspace takes up more volume than the combined military airspace of Europe and the USA. All this for less than 100 fast jet aircraft!

 

Let's have a look at our airspace. For example, how do you go between Bankstown and Taree during the week? You can fly at 500' up the inland lane, or the coast, sometimes being asked to fly a mile or so out to sea (often due to airline traffic, at Williamtown and there are HUGE sharks in the water there), or you can head west and fly over somewhere like the Barrington Tops - which has already claimed several lives. Why shouldn't we be able to fly straight through? The chance of a Hornet actually being airborne at that particular moment is pretty remote, and if there is some traffic I'm sure properly trained fighter pilots could avoid something doing maybe 100 knots.

 

It's about risk management. If you think a training area with a Agustas and Lear Jets should be restricted airspace requiring a clearance and a transponder, then ALL training areas with Agustas and Lear Jets should be the same, and that might pose a bit of a problem for those of us not flying Agustas, Lear Jets or similar. Where on earth would we fly?

 

Where is the evidence to say that flying with Agustas and Lear Jets (or even Hornets) is particularly dangerous? If you look at collisions statistics around the world you'll find the greatest danger is in the terminal area, including when it is controlled. That is where the traffic is. For our traffic density in Australia, we've probably had more mid-airs than we should, despite our restricted airspace.

 

How many mid-airs have there been between GA and military aircraft in heavy traffic areas in the UK, USA and Europe? Yes, there have been a few, but for our traffic density in Australia we've had more in CTAFs and GAAPs.

 

Now let's have a look at the military airspace situation in the UK, past and present. In the early 90s a certain nasty little war was about to get underway. At the time, in the centre of the UK just to the east of Cambridge there was a Military Air Traffic Zone called Honington Zone. GA aircraft could fly straight over the top at 2,500' without a clearance, and there were 4 Tornado squadrons with 12 aircraft each and 8 F-111 squadrons with 18 aircraft each, between the three airfields (Honington, Upper Heyford and Lakenheath) that make up the zone. That is about double the fire power of the entire RAAF in an area of less than 100 square miles. Most of the aircraft were training for war, carrying live weapons and flying in large formations. And yet you or I could, in our little bugsmasher, simply transit above the Zone at 2,500'. Zone ATC (using primary radar, as we have at Williamtown and Nowra) just let everyone know, "There's a MATZ crosser north to south over Lakenheath at 2500". Simple, safe and efficient for all concerned.

 

This MATZ crossing system is still in place in the UK because it works!

 

Back to your theory though that we must avoid flying near anything military at all costs, how are any of you going to fly into Avalon? You'll be in close proximity to F15s and F16s, and heaven forbid, you won't even need a flight plan or a transponder!!!

 

It just has to be consistent. If we can fly into Avalon during an air show, we should be able to fly through Nowra during the week.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

[Guest palexxxx]

Well said, Mazda :thumb_up:

 

 

[icebob]

Spot on Mazda.

 

In the 1970's I built a VP-1 at HMAS Albatross and I was in the Navy then and I did fly out of Nowra just about every weekend AND on "sports days" without any problems and we had Skyhawks,Trackers,DC 3's Iroquois,HS748's and the odd balls I worked on Wessex. I even convinced Commander(Air) to have a flight in the VP.

 

Not once did I ever have a problem, the basic training for ATC has not changed only the technology and it would surprise me if anyone had a real problem transiting Nowra airspace if the rules were relaxed.

 

The other issue is the weaponry and sensors available on our military aircraft is so sophisticated and they can not find a Rec aircraft then they should be relegated to the bath!

 

Bob.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

i think the military had delusions of grandure and grabbed as much airspace as they could. must of thought they were going to have thousands of tiger moths to train in. time they were moved to the desert.

 

 

[Tomo]

Well said, Mazda :thumb_up:

:thumb_up::thumb_up:

 

 

[Guest Orion]

Mazda

 

Exactly what has any of this got to do with the topic of this thread which is about unathorized entry into controlled airspace. Nothing at all. The situation is the same in any controlled airspace you can only be there if the rules permit.

 

If you have an axe to grind with the military and its airspace restrictions and it appears that you do then fine grind away.

 

Personally i disagree and will happily stay outside zones i'm not authorized to be in, if they change the rules then i'll go there. Simple as that.

 

In the meantime i think i'll honour the memory of the friends i lost whilst in service, there were a couple, and choose to ignore ill informed remarks about the state of our military and the men and women who chose to serve Most of whom do it out of a sense of duty not for the free training.

 

Orion

 

 

[Mazda]

Orion, personally I do comply with the rules, but I think change would be beneficial.

 

You have said you'd be happy to fly in the airspace if the rules were changed, so you obviously do think it is safe. Will you be one lobbying to change the rules, or waiting for someone else to do it? If no one does anything about it, the rules will never change.

 

I'm very sorry about your lost friends and I also honour their memories. Did any of them lose their lives in a collision with GA aircraft in Australian military airspace?

 

Remember that people who join the military do so knowing it has risks. They could go to war and be shot at. The same cannot be said for the civilians who lost their lives west of Williamtown while trying to avoid the military airspace. They were not training for war, they were just trying to go home. There was also a lucky escape for a student pilot who had an engine failure at 500' in the Willy lane. There wasn't time to do much so he ditched in those nasty shark infested waters, and fortunately he survived.

 

I wonder if you asked a bunch of school leavers why they might want to join the RAAF if they would say they have a sense of duty to their country, or if they would say they really want to fly fighters? ;)

 

As for non-military controlled airspace, don't get me started there either, because having Class D at Albury covering such a huge area is ridiculous! They don't even have RPT jet movements! But that is really getting off the topic.

 

 

 

[Guest Orion]

Cheers:big_grin: