Have you taken risks?

[Spriteah]

Recently there are reports of very skilled aviators taking risks for reason that may well be commercial.

 

Filming has been suggested for some recent fatalities.

 

I dont want to make comment on particular instances however I would like to ask the room do they feel pressure to fly in poor conditions? Poor aircraft? Not feeling 100%.

 

I know myself I have arrange for friends to attend the airport for a joy flight and although I felt comfortable I have done some challenging cross wind landings. I think to myself if the visitors were not there would have I gone flying?

 

Im Curious about others comments on this subject.

 

Jim

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Yep. I take risks.

 

Every time I cross the road.

 

When its with a plane. Then the answer is NO. Tristo an Stewballs hammered Risk Management in to me during my training, and quite a few hours spent chatting with Pip outside his hangar also taught me that its not acceptable to take risks with flying, and that the rules CASA came up with are there for a bloody good reason.

 

That reason being simple; Going home to Angela after a flight.

 

Ben

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Used to do stuff like that but no more. If things don't look good they're shxx out of luck. Used to fly a lot of rides, less now, mainly now for my pleasure, not only theirs. I like to give my current rides a real valuable and special experience, one that they really enjoy and remember...................

 

 

[BLA82]

I agree with Ben,

 

Although I haven't been flying for long I am very lucky to have an instructor who attitude to safety is second to none, but in early days with my Motorbike riding and especially racing I was always taking risks and alot of them weren't calculated and I am lucky to have never cost myself my life or my health. But as Ben said I to have a wife to come home to and responsibilities and it's amazing how much it grounds you.

 

 

[gofastclint]

Recently there are reports of very skilled aviators taking risks for reason that may well be commercial.Filming has been suggested for some recent fatalities.

 

I dont want to make comment on particular instances however I would like to ask the room do they feel pressure to fly in poor conditions? Poor aircraft? Not feeling 100%.

 

I know myself I have arrange for friends to attend the airport for a joy flight and although I felt comfortable I have done some challenging cross wind landings. I think to myself if the visitors were not there would have I gone flying?

 

Im Curious about others comments on this subject.

 

Jim

My dad never layed down too many rules for me growing up, his main rule was "Have fun but not at the cost of others" but he did have a strange rule when me or any of my mates rode our motor bikes and that was "No filming!", as he knew we were many times safer without a camera. Thinking back, he was so right. As soon as you put a camera in front of someone, they will be more likely to take risks.

 

With flying, the home viewer has no true appreciation for 3 G's let alone the 10+ G's top aerobatisists (my new word) put themselves through so the envelope must be pushed to keep the film people paying the bills.

 

Its only going to get more dangerous as more people take up an interest in "Red Bull Flying". Look what crusty demons did to motor cross, 10 years ago, a heal clicker was the be all and end all, now kids are trying superman back flips.

 

So poor self control could be classed as a bad condition to be flying in.

 

 

[gofastclint]

I agree with Ben,Although I haven't been flying for long I am very lucky to have an instructor who attitude to safety is second to none, but in early days with my Motorbike riding and especially racing I was always taking risks and alot of them weren't calculated and I am lucky to have never cost myself my life or my health. But as Ben said I to have a wife to come home to and responsibilities and it's amazing how much it grounds you.

Its amazing what a good woman can do to your life. That bad crash I told you about was the first time I'd been in an accident since being married and I never had fear till then. as my heart stopped and I blacked out, all I could think about was not seeing my wife again. Your right, even if you cant be responsible for yourself, atleast be responsible for the one you share you life with.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

A few bad decisions involving bikes in my youth. never hurt myself but smartend up pretty quick when i started jumping. had enough sense to learn from other peoples mistakes. and this followed thru into HGs and flying, A few times i have backed out and others continued. it's OK to be called wimp. later you can ask "does that hurt"?

 

pays to recognise when someone else is involving you in their bad decisions.

 

create sensible base line rules and build on them as experience is gained.

 

what was the name of that song from the original Italian Job.? ' we're the self preservation society'

 

ozzie

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Interesting question...young males and testosterone seem to be a dangerous mix. Young women don't seem to have anything like the wish to take risks.

 

I, like every other young bloke, took great risks. I was, after all, immortal. It took a couple of incidents to shake me up. I rolled a tractor down a hill and only the safety frame saved me; I watched a fellow spin in; and I nearly got myself killed on the deck of a drilling rig.

 

It kind of settled me down. Now the risks tend not to be the ones that are taken actively but the sucker traps that sneak up on you because your brain isn't far enough ahead of the aircraft. Just as deadly.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[shags_j]

Something I've noticed, particularly in the LSA circles is that safety seems to be more paramount than in say lighter GA aircraft. I've been to probably 3 different GA schools and 2 RA schools (yeah I switch a fair bit) and until I went RA I never really felt safe in teh aircraft I was flying.

 

 

[Guest drizzt1978]

I used to race cars...That was a bit risky, But i drove too my car and more importantly MY capabilities!!

 

As i started flying I realized something, And I will give an example,

 

5th Hour solo so far, I called final, came into do a nice landing late in the day. I was a little flat and therefore had a bit too much speed as Id used a bit of power to make the strip, as I started to touch down I realized I was to quick, Flare, bounce, then bounce, then full power away I go! I was like dam what a F@#$ up, Came round did a perfect landing. (Like the 8 before the bad one!)

 

Two pilots walked out of the BAR with beers in there hand, And i though OH O im gunna cop some Sh!@ for that landing, First pilot says "Gee that was a good call then, could have made a bad landing really bad", Second pilot says "Yeah you should be proud some young guys would try and land that when it was too far gone"

 

And I realized that there is NO room for ego what so ever, NOTHING to prove and that Unlike many things in life, haveing to do it again isnt failure its doing the right thing....

 

 

[shags_j]

Sage advice. Mine would be that if you don't feel safe in teh aircraft, don't go up. At my last school the aircraft were in aweful condition, seatbelts that didn't work properly, aircraft constantly breaking down (I did my first solo without a DG). My second solo oil pressure dropped to the red on my last circuit. I had shimmy dampner problems which postponed my solo. At that school, due to maintenance, I flew in three different types of aircraft.

 

Whilst this is all character building I wasn't going to keep on like that. That's why I changed schools. At some point your own safety needs to be more important than going up.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

How do training aircraft get into a condition like that? just goes to show that maybe the system is flawed

 

 

[shags_j]

And that was GA. I've never felt safer than in RA aircraft. I think the attitude is completely different. RA Trainers are doing it because they enjoy it and want to. Therefore they take more care of their aircraft, safety breifs etc. GA TRaining schools seem to be about moeny. The instructors are usually just trying to be airline pilots and building up hours (in saying that my last instructor at that same GA School was fantastic, it was the schools fault with regards to teh aircraft etc).

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

Risks are something we take everyday. Everytime I get in the aircraft at work I know that we'll be hitting anywhere from 140 to 240 knots at 100ft because that's what we do. We all know it's dangerous and risky and that anything can happen. We brief before every flight, go through safety procedures in the event we ditch so that in the event that it might happen, we all know what we should do.

 

I have a lot of trust in all of our pilots, I know they'll never take a risk that could put us all in danger.

 

In saying that, when I get in the Sportcruiser down at Bunbury I go through everything in my mind first, then say it out loud. I make sure everything is checked thoroughly and feel confident that if anything went wrong that I'd be able to deal with it.

 

I believe that having confidence in knowing what to do if something did go wrong can save your life.

 

As for knowingly take risks, hell no. I've seen what it can do and like so many here, I'm married and have a beautiful wife to come home to everyday. I refuse to put myself into a situation that could turn nasty because I have to much to live for.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I knowingly take risks and I'm sure others do, possibly without realising. It's usually a matter of how much of the territory ahead is tiger country. If it's 5 miles of trees, that's around 1.5 minutes of area where I can't land without seriously damaging myself and or the aircraft. I then average that around the length of the flight, so 1.5 minutes in 60 is a 2.5% risk of death or injury, so I work out whether or not I want to accept that. It's much harder to attach risk to other actitivies that I may partake in though, such as NVFR because I'm not sure how I'm going to perform when something goes wrong or at which point it will go wrong. Food for thought.

 

 

[shags_j]

If you don't realise you're taking a risk then you're not knowingly doing it...

 

As per your calculation it shows a very minor amount of risk that has been calculated. We all take a risk every time we step into a plane. I think the discussion here is around taking risks that are of a larger nature.

 

Risk management i think is integral, wether that be insurance for when soemthing does go wrong or the management of the initial risk to make sure that you (or in some cases your loved ones) never have to claim on that insurance.

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

I will give you a tale on this one and it is bloody horrible!

 

 

The key word is within Spriteah’s opening comments – “Filmingâ€.

 

 

Now I presume we all know about ‘Press on It’is’ killing people in what could and should have been normal conditions if some sensible decisions and Airmanship had been exercised?

 

 

Add the pressure of ‘filming’ and dear me does that pressure escalate up to the point of insanity!

 

 

I had done a bit of ‘film flying’ and did not really like it because I found people who knew nothing about flying, but had circumstance control, pushing the circumstances far too much and waving bloody big cheque books to underline the point.

 

 

My ‘Hey Day’ came when I was detailed to fly an ASK13 glider (just for normal wages so saw nothing of the ‘big cheque book), with a bloody expensive model in the front seat (that is not a plastic replica Sportsfans, it is the real flesh and blood thing with great boobs, long hair and all the rest of it). She was also going to be the first on the scene of any accident so I was being super careful!

 

 

The event was to film a backdrop to a new tune on the then UK TV show “Top of the Pops†– something I am sure you are all well aware is worth dying for!!!! The song was Glen Campbells “It’s Only Make Believe†What happened was not make believe at all it was only too real. This is how you get sucked in.

 

 

We had a great day with virtually no wind, 8/8ths blue and aerotowed the glider all day using an Auster with the doors off as a camera ship when off-tow and most of it was close formation work.

 

 

I had not started off really great with the model. When I was introduced to her I told her that she had to take her dress off is she wanted to fly with me. She was wearing one of these to the floor stylish things that did not fit a cockpit controls. She had some jeans so that was OK but it took a bit of time to settle down together after that so things were anyway a bit chilly.

 

 

The Director (of course) during the day was not satisfied and wanted more and more filming. That was OK but a big belt of deep fog formed in the valley and crept up to the airfield. This poised itself at the airfield boundary and appeared to be remaining static for quite some time.

 

 

I was ordered to winch launch the ASK13 for some final real close ups and was assured that this would be the end of it. A Falke motor glider would be waiting for me at the top of the launch to formate immediately and do the filming. Just ten minutes more air time.

 

 

I took off and as I did so the fog abruptly rolled in, moving very fast. I went into cloud at 400’ agl but by this time had been totally seduced by the nearly finished task. So a winch launch is quite stable and I just relaxed, stayed still and let the ’13 do it for me (praying that we did not have a cable break as we would have been really cactus as I had no blind flying instruments).

 

 

I came out of cloud at 1000’ agl and continued the climb to 1400’ and the Falke was indeed there waiting. So we got on with it and I am here to tell you that close formation flying while trying to keep track of a rapidly vanishing airfield below you is a bit of a trick!

 

 

The fog was moving fast now and I did not have the height to glide clear and have sufficient time to pick and get down in a paddock due to the risk to what was in the front seat.

 

 

I had made time to establish my orientation and where I thought I was over the ground. I then began counting. What a bloody wonderful technical prelude to what was going to be a total IMC let down with no instruments!

 

 

I established the ’13 in a gentle turn that I estimated would get me around 180 degrees and pointing somewhere at the airfield. I then froze the controls and would not move them. I knew that I had 400’ clear below the cloud so that would be ample with the performance the glider had. Bollocks I did!

 

 

The actual fog sheet had settled and I went into it at a bit over 500’ agl. But now it stretched nearly to the ground. We flopped out of the bottom, still under control, at 100’ agl and I recognised nothing! Just woods and nowhere to land.

 

 

I kept the turn on and glimpsed a bit of a paddock edge that I did recognise, scraped over the boundary fence with about 15’ to spare, with no airbrakes out, and spot landed at the launch point. I suppose the spectators thought I was wonderful! Crap – I was in serious reaction and bloody furious! But I was still alive to be furious and more importantly so was my passenger – who passed no comment or reaction and probably thought that everything was totally normal!

 

 

I ditched the lot, got into my car and then had a very torrid session with the CFI (who had been flying the Falke) about filming et al. He was a very experienced man and would not comment beyond “you were pilot in command of your aircraft. If you did not like it you should not have goneâ€. Great! Nothing about the pressure of circumstance. Nothing about it would have been my job forfeit if I had not gone. But he was exactly right and that is the message that I want to convey here.

 

 

What I do want to convey very clearly is it does not matter how much experience I had, how much currency, how many thousand flights I had on type – it was total insanity, yet I still went there! In so doing I risked the life of a passenger who trusted me implicitly and I denied that trust under the responsibility of pilot in command.

 

 

Any of you may re-read the above and just start ticking off the idiotic Airmanship lack of decisions that were made and castigate me as you wish (this was back in 1971 incidently). But I have not yet finished.

 

 

Just recently one of my ex students has bought an aircraft and asked me to sit in with him while he became comfortable again. The weather around Watts has not been real good and has been really frustrating with one wasted morning after another drifting by. We often have the early mornings fogged in.

 

 

Two days ago we had a totally clear morning for once. But we also had a large and evil fog bank with low cloud above it, just sitting there two miles away. I was not comfortable and refused to fly. My ‘student’ got a bit excited and asked why not and I asked him to wait a few minutes. Things were starting to move.

 

 

This was not wind – the windsocks were hanging limp – but the Watts ridge is 15 miles long and that fog bank covered the distance in less time than it takes to fly a circuit! I think it was an atmospheric pressure change and we do get some of them around here – but I have never seen anything so swift other than many years ago with a model in the front seat. Within ten minutes we had no cloud base and visibility down to 200 metres.

 

 

I do not care! I can learn and no more would I put myself above any of those things with no instruments – or even with instruments!

 

 

Perhaps you can learn from this take too? Rather than the threads title of asking of if you take risk – the real risk you take are the ones you do not even know that your are taking!

 

 

Aye

 

 

Tony

 

 

[facthunter]

Risk assessment.

 

The pressure really gets on when you go commercial. Prior to that it is entirely up to you whether you push the boundaries, and if you are a dill then eventually, it will show.

 

, and you may hurt yourself and others

 

In an instructing situation, you have to let it go to the limit occasionally, (your limit) as if you take over early, the student will not be aware of how actually dangerous the situation was that he/she had allowed the aircraft to get into. This is why an instructor must maintain a high level of personal flying proficiency, and why he should have quite a bit of "at the limit" flying experience.

 

The other occasions relate to a charter environment. You will ALWAYS be expected to get the job done. The weather, your ability to carry fuel/payload, alternates required, serviceability, urgency of the trip, fatigue level etc all affect the decision to go/not go. It is up to you to get your priorities right. Sometimes, a refusal to fly may put your job in jeopardy. IF you are still alive you can get another job. (Easy said).

 

Often several factors exist ,any ONE of which would not be a problem on its own, but in combination, prove fatal. Have I pushed the boundaries for the wrong reasons? Yes I have, but I hope that experience and the wisdom that should come with it, make it less likely these days. Nev..

 

 

[gofastclint]

Hey Tony. One mistakes I will point out, your should have used a better pick up line instead of "take your dress off" and then maybe you would have got the models phone number and made a different type of landing. hehe!

 

 

[shags_j]

lol. So how do you get one of these flying models around gigs. I want one...

 

 

[Spriteah]

Wel I got lots of response to this thread which is great. Lots to learn here. I think the most interesting comments are that dad said no filming!!!!

 

In relation to motor bikes.

 

As to the model. When I read 'take the dress off' I figured for a sec she was a great girl. And you where filming for Zoo Magazine. Naked model in a glider!!!!

 

Be safe!!!

 

Jim

 

 

[Spriteah]

ANother very interesting comment is some feel much safer in LSA or UL than GA aircraft. And yet we are led to believe that GA are MUCH safer and maintained to a higher level.

 

Jim

 

 

[gofastclint]

And that was GA. I've never felt safer than in RA aircraft. I think the attitude is completely different. RA Trainers are doing it because they enjoy it and want to. Therefore they take more care of their aircraft, safety breifs etc. GA TRaining schools seem to be about moeny. The instructors are usually just trying to be airline pilots and building up hours (in saying that my last instructor at that same GA School was fantastic, it was the schools fault with regards to teh aircraft etc).

The reason I fly at the Oaks instead of Bankstown which is only down the road is due to attitude, The guys at The Oaks are friendly and professional and they want to fly RA, I got stuffed around so much at Bankstown, so I drove to The Oaks, The first person I spoke too had been stuffed around in Bankstown too and told me how much better The Oaks was and I haven't looked back.

 

Its fine if you want to get your hours up to go comercial but if you run a business you have a duty of care to the customers and should provide the service you advertise.

 

Has anyone anyone else in the Sydney area had the same problem? I garantee its worth the hour drive out to The Oaks, plus you dont have to wory about crap that goes on in larger airports.

 

 

[farri]

Recently there are reports of very skilled aviators taking risks for reason that may well be commercial.I dont want to make comment on particular instances however I would like to ask the room do they feel pressure to fly in poor conditions? Poor aircraft? Not feeling 100%.

 

Jim

Hello Jim,

 

As far as taking risks go,I have a hard time answering this question because we first need to define what a risk is,what I consider to be a risk may be standard practise to someone else and the other way around.

 

On the pressure to fly issue,I believe that recreational aviation is just that,flying for fun,there`s an old saying that says,"It`s better to be down here wishing you were up there, than to be up there wishing you were down here".

 

Not long after I started flying and with very few hours loged,I was pressured by a few guys to go up, because they wanted to see me fly,it was very windy and I didn`t want to do it ,they said "You`ll be right Frank,the wind won`t hurt you" so I finaly gave in,the turbulence was so bad for the experience I had that I realy thought it was all over and the only way I was going to get back on the ground was in a heap,luckily I did the circuit and landed saftely.

 

From that moment, I made a firm decision that I would never again allow anyone or thing, to pressure me into flying and I never have.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

 

[skydog]

I`ve done it

 

I have taken risks, stupid risks, calculated risks, and have gotten away with it.

 

My flying risks have been when pressured by third parties or outside influences when I should have known better but took no heed.

 

Possibly one day I will not be taking a risk flying and not get away with it.

 

Fortunately when I have taken risks and had a close, uncomfortable mind numbing bad experience it has changed by attitude and behaviour so I dont repeat that again. Like Ozzie I have done many hundreds of Skydives and some might say that is risky. Well maybe life is all just a calculated risk and when your number is up it is up. Just would be unfortunate to take some other innocent party out at the same time.

 

The most dangerous part of your life for survival is the journey down the tubes to the womb!