How many hours out of your 2 stroke??

[seb7701]

Apologies if these has been asked, but how many hours have y'all managed to get out of your 503's and 582's?

 

Whilst I know that most well used Rotax's can exceed the TBO by a fair margin, I have heard the odd story of Rotax's 2 strokes getting around with massive hours on them, sometimes untouched.

 

Has anyone got some amazing tales of Rotax survival?

 

 

[Ultralights]

mine has only had schedule maintenance done as per the rotax manual, it now has 550 Hrs on it, and no sign of wear on any parts at the 500 hr top end overhaul

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Did a trouble free 650 hrs on a Grey head 582 (non oil inject). It's still putting out.

 

 

[bilby54]

Apologies if these has been asked, but how many hours have y'all managed to get out of your 503's and 582's?Whilst I know that most well used Rotax's can exceed the TBO by a fair margin, I have heard the odd story of Rotax's 2 strokes getting around with massive hours on them, sometimes untouched

I have a 582 with over 300 hours that has never been touched except for the usual plugs and fluid replacement. The bore still has honing cross hatch marks on it and it starts first go every time.

 

I would like to extend on Seb's post and ask why there is a 300 hour limit on a 582 for training aircraft? Was it due to a court case in some obscure country that blamed the engine or is it a real problem operating over 300 hours?

 

Is it possible to get 'on condition' engines as in GA as 300 hours seems ridiculously short..... i_dunno

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Is it 300 hours on school acft??...shizen... I thought it was 500??

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

The Rotax maintenance schedule requires a "general overhaul" at 300h for 447 / 503 / 582 - this means that "the engine has to be shipped to an authorised distributor or service centre"

 

Schools have to follow the manufacturers servicing requirements

 

John

 

 

[seb7701]

Considering 600hrs seems to be no problem, the 300hr limitation appears to be a little conservative doesn't it? As Bilby mentioned, on conditions sounds like a perfectly viable option I would think, particularly if it's good enough for the bog boys.

 

 

[bilby54]

particularly if it's good enough for the bog boys.

Hmm, now that should get things moving!! :big_grin:

 

 

[farri]

I used up 4, 582,grey head engines on the Austflight Maxair Drifter,when I was instructing.

 

The first was the one and only oil injected and went 682 hrs then the crankshaft bearings fell apart.

 

The second did 640 hrs,same thing.

 

The third did 665 hrs,again crankshaft bearings.

 

By the last one I`d decided that for whatever reason 3 had gone over 500 hrs but not made 700 hrs so I replaced the crankshaft at 500 hrs and did another 550,a total of 1050 hrs trouble free.

 

I`m not instructing anymore and decided to go back to the 503,it`s done 98 hrs to date and goes like a rocket.

 

I might add that all my moters were hung upside down and fuel was mixed at the standard 50:1 ratio, the standard maintenance was always done.

 

If the crankshaft has not been replaced,I would advise everyone to be very carefull from 500 hrs on.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

" Flying Is Easy,Crashing Is Hard".

 

 

[seb7701]

Interesting - I always wondered whether the inverted configuration was less desireable, but seems not to have made any difference... I think.

 

How about 503's? What sort of lifespan can one expect? Has a 300 hour 503 got another 300 to go?

 

What about rebuild costs for a 503?

 

 

[facthunter]

Crank life.

 

Farri's advice is reasonable based on operating experience, but the manufactured has to cover a wide range of operating conditions and whatever the formula they use, will never advocate a figure which is a high percentage of expected failure hours.

 

For those of you who are not familiar with the pattern of wear on roller bearing assemblies, Wear, producing "play" is NOT always evident , before it fails. The failure is caused by the hardened surface fatiguing and flaking off the crankpin (usually) and getting all mixed up with the roller cage and it can all weld up and go blue. Sometimes a piece of detached metal will score the cylinder, but you cannot rely on that indication. All these instruments that measure play that you can buy are a waste of time in my opinion. They may determine if play exists but unless it is excessive, it is not a reliable indicator of engine reliability. I am sure if Rotax could get the engine hours raised, they would, as it is a good selling point. Nev.

 

 

[skeptic36]

When I was looking to purchase an aircraft all the good judges where telling me not to buy a grey head 582 because the crank bearings are supposedly not reliable, but if Frank can get those sort of hours from a grey top then the blue head motors must be good :thumb_up:

 

Oh BTW I bought a grey top (it was in my price range;)), it has 350 hrs on it now with no issues yet.:thumb_up::thumb_up:

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[ozzietriker]

Hi Guys, some very interesting information indeed. My 582cc is a grey top and almost has 400hrs on it and running still like a swiss clock(touch wood).

 

This subject has raised much interest as I wonder whether if the 300 hrs TBO comes from Rotax covering their backside or whether if they want extra business.

 

Looking at the Airborne Engine Maintenance Schedule it actually states 400hrs TBO and even then, it is not a mandatory TBO but I quote "recommended overhaul or replacement".

 

From day one - I only use Castrol Active 2T oil (premixed - no oil injection) my insructor said to never use anything else and only used premium unleaded fuel.

 

Also warm your engine up sufficiently, water temp up to 60'C before take off and run your motor at least for 5 mins on the ground each week if you don't fly often.

 

I recently checked my bearing clearances, front cyl meas 0.02mm play and rear cyl 0.01mm play. Not bad for a motor that's done 400 hrs, I believe if you follow the regular general servicings then there's no reason not to get at least 500hrs out of your 582cc - touch wood :thumb_up:

 

Just priced up a new 582cc from Floodies $6300 + GST included are the carbys, ignitions and exhaust. Gearbox is an extra $2100 + GST. I don't know how long a gearbox is good for though, can I just plonk it on the next new motor? there is no maintenance policy on the gear reduction drive that I can find apart from the oil change.

 

chers

 

Dennis:thumb_up:

 

 

[bilby54]

From day one - I only use Castrol Active 2T oil (premixed - no oil injection) my insructor said to never use anything else and only used premium unleaded fuel.

Also warm your engine up sufficiently, water temp up to 60'C before take off and run your motor at least for 5 mins on the ground each week if you don't fly often.

 

chers

 

Dennis:thumb_up:

Allowing sufficient warm up time is the best thing that can be done to extend engine life and should not be rushed even in summer.

 

I have an oil injected 582 with 350 hrs on it run on Castrol TTS and normal unleaded fuel with and it is as good as the day it was fitted. The gearbox on the other hand has caused me no end of grief and was the cause of at least three forced landings with bearing failures.:yuk:

 

Interesting that the trike can be run out to 400 hours but the Rotax manual states a "general overhaul of engine" at 300 hrs. There is a certain amount of grey area in that statement!:confused:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

excuse my ignorance, im a 4 stroker, am looking into buying a 2 stroke machine..

 

If used in a school, the TBO is 300 hrs, is there an on condition arrangment for the 582's??...if not, how did farri manage to get the hours he states out of a 2 stroke in a school??

 

:thumb_up:

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Hey Motz have a talk to Tony Hayes there is a bit of a grey area and he's knows more about the Rotax's than many on these forums has forgotten!

 

 

[farri]

excuse my ignorance, im a 4 stroker, am looking into buying a 2 stroke machine..If used in a school, the TBO is 300 hrs, is there an on condition arrangment for the 582's??...if not, how did farri manage to get the hours he states out of a 2 stroke in a school??

:thumb_up:

Hi Motz,

 

Firstly, I would not post anything which is not true,this is simply to try and answer your question so a little bit of a history lesson is required.

 

When I started instructing there were no other Rotax 582,other than mine, in this part of the country,we were flying blind,so to speak,I was president of The Far North Queensland Ultralight Association and so decided to ask the Rotax manufactures for some maintenance schedules and believe it or not,they would not give us any and we were also told that their engines were not designed for UL aircraft and that we were only 1% of their market,anyway, and therefore we were on our own.

 

I literally had to learn by experience and so ran the engines untill they wouldn`t go anymore so as to see where the limit was,it was only by the third motor that a 350 hour limit on the crankshaft was introduced by Rotax,because by then, we were no longer just 1% of their market, they were becoming nervous about liability and the time limit was later changed to 300 hrs,which is recomended now,however, to my knowledge,there is still no set time limits on any mainenance,there is just an advised schedual.

 

It wasn`t the best way to gain information but keep in mind that those of us who started the Ultralight movement had to learn a lot of things the hard and practical way and those who have followed now benifit from this.

 

All the best,

 

Frank.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Farri, mate, i wasn't saying you were telling tall ones.. I was curious about the legalaties involved in operating a 2 stroke in a school... Thanx for the info...much appreciated....

 

So it is now 300 hours??....no condition running|?

 

 

[farri]

Interesting - I always wondered whether the inverted configuration was less desireable, but seems not to have made any difference... I think.How about 503's? What sort of lifespan can one expect? Has a 300 hour 503 got another 300 to go?

 

What about rebuild costs for a 503?

Hi Seb,

 

I don`t know if inverted is less reliable,but the crankshaft becomes the top of the engine and therefore when the engine is not running any oil left in the case would drain down towards the cylinder heads,could this cause the crankshaft bearings to lack enough lubrication on start up?

 

I went back to the 503 because Wayne Fisher believes that the modern 503 should be good for 1000 hours but I have never seen one of the early ones go anywhere near this and there have been all sorts of failures, well before 500 hrs.,I`m hoping Wayne is correct.

 

I don`t know if it`s true but I`ve been told that the 503 won`t be available for much longer.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

 

[bilby54]

Hi Motz,I literally had to learn by experience and so ran the engines untill they wouldn`t go anymore so as to see where the limit was,it was only by the third motor that a 350 hour limit on the crankshaft was introduced by Rotax,because by then, we were no longer just 1% of their market, they were becoming nervous about liability and the time limit was later changed to 300 hrs,which is recomended now,however, to my knowledge,there is still no set time limits on any mainenance,there is just an advised schedual.

 

All the best,

 

Frank.

Hi Farri,

 

This is a real insight into the resons for the 300 TBO and blokes like you should be congratulated for the early years of ultra-lighting.

 

I had always considered that it was a liability issue rather than an engineering decision which is a pity really. This would tend to make it easier for Rotax to sell parts and engines rather than develop them further, especially the crankshaft bearings that seem to be the problem.

 

I would think that the 582 would be the engine if it could run out to sensible TBO hours. :thumb_up:

 

 

[seb7701]

Hi Farri.

 

You raised a very logical point re th bottom end becoming the top and from my limited mechanical knowledge, the majority of engine wear occurs at startup, so it what you are saying re the inverted engines does make sense.

 

I am aware of Wayne's preference for the 503's and, come to think of it, will have to ask some time how many hours he gets out of one. I love the simplicity of the air cooling and the general reputation of the 503, hence my interest.

 

Will keep investigating....

 

 

[Outback Bob]

582 Rotax with 420hrs, tolerances like new. 50hrs a year.

 

 

[Dieselten]

My first 582 went 762 hours and still ran well when it went for a rebuild due to a failing alternator. Second one siezed on takeoff at about 550 hours. Replaced it, flew 13 hours on it and the a/c has since been sold.

 

Properly maintained and regularly run 582 blue-head engines should run 500-600 hours trouble-free. Most schools are moving away from 2-stroke powerplants these days since the 912-engned trikes have been available. For 3-axis the 2-stroke is also on the wane. It's hard to argue against the reliability and low-maintenance of the Rotax 912. The downside is the high initial purchase-cost.

 

You end up paying for engines one way or another - either through ongoing maintenance of a relatively cheap powerplant, or in the initial purchase-price for a low-maintenance high-reliability powerplant.

 

 

[facthunter]

The two-strokes are still ahead in the WEIGHT stakes. Other than that...They SMELL crook, You (generally) have to premix. The exhaust system being very much a part of the engine performance is bulky and often causes a lot of air resistance and they use more fuel for the same power. They are fitted with roller bearings which are hard to monitor for condition. Play does not develop often, and the bearing surface will flake due to fatigue, or the cage will fail or the piston will seize, or burn a hole in the top due to running lean.. They are good at stopping suddenly. This will happen for people who do not treat them right far more often than for those who are careful and understand them. Maybe they are becoming a thing of the past, but I still think that that would be a little SAD.... Nev

 

 

[eastmeg2]

What is the requirement for warming up a Rotax503 before takeoff? All I have to go by are the CHT gauges, so would 200F on those gauges before taking off sound sensible?

 

For the 582 I was taught 130F coolant temp before takeoff.

 

For the 912 I was taught 50c Oil Temp before takeoff and it's placarded on the panel.

 

I may find a minimum operating temperature in the Rotax manual, but keeping in mind that on my Buzzard trike with it's Wizard wing the CHT's rarely get over 300F compared to the max allowable 450F.

 

Just found the Rotax operaters manual on the web and normal CHT is between 350-430F and maximum is 480F.

 

Is it likely that the engines life will be shortened because it's not running hot enough? Should I replace the Wizard wing with a Streak wing to make it run hotter, or reduce the pitch on the prop - currently max static revs are 6,400rpm and it maintains altitude at 37kts IAS at 4,800rpm.

 

I had similar queries about my friends C172 which is also air cooled and has a very basic engine temp gauge and the rule of thumb with the Cesna172 was to just ensure it had 5 minutes of taxying/warmup before takeoff from what I remember from about 18 months ago.